Lee Enfield Rifle

[Beselare]

Yesterday in Sanctuary Wood a British-based guide who is ex-military was giving a group a lecture on the Lee Enfield. As his group all had short haircuts, I am assuming they were army cadets. The guide made a categorical statement that the rate of fire of the Lee Enfield was 30 rounds a minute. Am I missing something here? I thought that 15 rounds a minute was considered a very high standard.

Bob

[spconnolly007]

So did I.

[T8HANTS]

15 was expected from a fully trained pre-war regular. I can't remember if 28 or 32 rpm was set as a record once.

G

[Tom Morgan]

15 aimed rounds per minute on target was the minumum standard to pass the army's musketry course, I think. Many men could do much better than that. However, 32 aimed, accurate rounds per minute seems a remarkable figure, as the shooter would have to stop and reload the rifle three times to achieve it. It was done, though, and I think the record was 38 shots on target.

Tom

[GRANVILLE]

15 rounds in a minute was referred to as the 'mad minute' and was a fairly common achievement amongst the regulars of 1914which is why the advancing Germans thought they were coming under machine gun fire when they had first contact with the BEF. There were - and still are, competitions held to try and produce this rate of fire.

David

[MikB]

15 rounds in a minute was referred to as the 'mad minute' and was a fairly common achievement amongst the regulars of 1914which is why the advancing Germans thought they were coming under machine gun fire when they had first contact with the BEF. There were - and still are, competitions held to try and produce this rate of fire.

David

Although the LE was an excellent fighting rifle and comfortably exceeded all other bolt-action weapons in rate of fire, there have been other threads on this subject which appeared to establish that there's no firm evidence for the machinegun theory in German records. IIRC it may be based on hearsay records of on interview with a single German prisoner. 30 rpm would be an exceptional rate and certainly not a standard. Regards,MikB

[5thBatt]

This is a video of me competing in a "mad minute' event, 15 rounds, starting with 5 in the mag & 2X chargers, i got 15 away, all scoring with a score of iirc 67 out of a possible 75.

As you can see i finished with time to spare, now i dont believe its hard to imagine me being able to get 30 away with a bit of practise, it may not be accurate as "minute of man" but it would certainly would be "minute of massed frontal assault".

[303man]

The 2 of the main Experts were QMSI Snoxall and QMSI Charlie Mapp of the Small Arms School Corps. Mapp had won the Kings medal for shooting so was an exceptional shot anyway he once fired 35 in a minute at 300 yds scoring 22 bulls, eleven inners and two magpies, It is said that the latter worried him for some time. Musketry Regulations of 1914 stated it is better to have a good average standard by all rather than exceptional skill from a few individuals, My best in a competition is 22 in a minute at 200 yds and having 18 hits on a figure 11 target the remaining 4 shots on the 4ft screen. 15 a minute is quite slow and guess what, the rapid rate used today is about the same with the SA80. Yes it is semi auto and you can fire one a second but to get the accuracy it is still taught deliberate one every 6 seconds and rapid one every 3

[reese williams]

I believe QMSI Sno xall set the record in 1914 with 32 rounds in the black at 300 yards in 1914.

[Beselare]

What great responses. Thank you to everyone for correcting my obvious inadequate knowledge. The video clip is very interesting. The noise generated by five or six men competing was a first experience for me. I can imagine that with twenty or more firing at the same time that the noise might well sound like a machine-gun.

Bob

[bill24chev]

What great responses. Thank you to everyone for correcting my obvious inadequate knowledge. The video clip is very interesting. The noise generated by five or six men competing was a first experience for me. I can imagine that with twenty or more firing at the same time that the noise might well sound like a machine-gun.

Bob

Yes! a battalion of say 800 men firing together at a rate of 15 rounds per minute would have produced the same number of rounds down range as 24 Maxim or Vickers MG's firing at the same time.

It is no wonder that Bloem believed that the BEF had more than the Two per Battalion, At the time the German Regiment ( 3 Bns) had I think six. So both armies had about the same per Division, in fact a British Division and a German Div had a similer number of men, machine guns and artillery but organised slightly differently.

[MikB]

What great responses. Thank you to everyone for correcting my obvious inadequate knowledge. The video clip is very interesting. The noise generated by five or six men competing was a first experience for me. I can imagine that with twenty or more firing at the same time that the noise might well sound like a machine-gun.

Bob

Downrange of the shooters the noise of discharge is dull and attenuated - by far the most significant sound is the whipcrack of supersonic bullets passing close. What it would sound like to troops under fire would depend to some extent on how consistent the closest point of trajectory was to them, as well as the consistency of rate of fire. My own view is that the sound of automatic fire is quite unmistakeable, and the story of the German belief that they were under such fire is probably convenient myth. Regards, MikB

[rd72]

Hi there,

Here is another... 25 rounds with a hiccup at the beginning....

Cheers,

Rob

[Khaki]

I believe that there is foundation for some German's having felt that they were under machine gun fire, but not necessarily from noise but more so from the numbers of their comrades who were being scythed down by fast accurate fire that in some cases had individual rounds hitting more that one target. German's advancing in close order and continuing to close up gaps would have added to the carnage, many a Tommy commented in his memoirs "we couldn't miss".

khaki

[Gunner Bailey]

I've always understood that a trained soldier could put around 20-22 accurate shots in a minute. The record 38 was achieved by an Instructor at the School of Musketry at Hythe. I don't know if this is the Snoxall or Mapp referred to by 303man. Having shot the III* a couple of times at Hythe I would certainly not have liked to be on the receiving end. It's a magnificent rifle.

John