Family Sought for Newly Identified War Grave

[Seadog]

For those members who may not have seen this news from the CWGC, good news but I wonder what prompted the CWGC & MOD to research this particular soldier/grave:

Research by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence (MOD) has identified the grave of Company Serjeant Major (CSM) Andrew Gale of The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) in Belgian Battery Corner Cemetery, Belgium. CSM Gale was commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing, but research has shown that the grave of a previously unknown CSM in the above cemetery is his. CSM Gale was born in Hammersmith, enlisted in Battersea, and resided at 14 Quinton Street in Earlsfield with his wife, Olivia Emma, and their three children. He died on 28 September 1918. The Commission and UK MOD are appealing for family to come forward so that arrangements can be made to mark the grave with a suitable headstone. In the first instance, please contact the Commission quoting "CSM Gale" at casualty.enq@cwgc.org

Norman

[The Inspector]

Hi All

A check on Ancestry reveals 3 messages left on a Public Tree for them to contact CWGC. I have sent a PM to the tree owner.

Regards Barry

[Seadog]

Thanks, knowing the research expertise on the forum I would not be surprised if living relatives are found.

Norman

[Seadog]

I reiterate that this is excellent news and one hopes that family members will be found. It would be good to know how the CSM was identified as being buried as an unknown particularly as the instigators for the investigation appear from the report to be the CWGC and MOD and not any research provided by a private person. Considering the vast number of war graves that the CWGC have under their care and the fact that the JCCC department of the MOD has at least 75 outstanding cases of unburied British armed forces human remains to deal with I am surprised if they, the MOD were the prime movers in the case and if not then who was?

Regards

Norman

[KevinBattle]

I hesitate to raise this topic, knowing how incendiary this sort of issue is, but wouldn't the CWGC emerge with a tremendous amount of kudos if they were able to include whatever details they hold on "Unknowns" in the CWGC cemeteries?

In this case, I don't know if anyone knows the Plot, Row and Grave reference for the "Unknown" CSM, (all the 28/09/18 seem to have a III B 22 reference) but without a private researcher, they must have stumbled across some way of identifying this specific man. He's not been identified (as of today) yet on the CWGC database.

With the expertise here, if we had (for example) a rank ABOVE Private and a Date of Death or Regiment, then it may be possible to narrow down the potential identity of that burial.

My apologies that I have forgotten his name (Captain Pritchard? the recent HAC burial) but that was similar in that there were so few candidates of that rank and regiment that his identity was unravelled fairly speedily, once we had "clues" to work with. That would serve as a good "challenge" here with a potential "Win-Win" for CWGC and relatives.

[The Inspector]

Hi All

I have had a reply via Ancestry from the tree owner, she is his 1st Cousin 3X removed and had seen the messages. I don't think there is much more we can do.

Regards Barry

[Seadog]

Thanks Barry if you can keep us up to date please

Norman

[MelPack]

Rededication Service in Belgium

26 August 2016

A Rededication Service will be held on 30 Sept 16 at 10:00hrs at Battery Corner Cemetery, Belgium for Company Serjeant Major Andrew Gale The Queens’s (Royal West Surrey Regiment).

CSM Gale was killed on 28 Sept 1918 and previously buried as an “unknown Company Serjeant Major of the Great War”.

The service has been organised by the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre and will be attending by British Defence staff, regimental representatives and local dignitaries.

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2016/8/rededication-service-in-belgium.aspx

[John_Hartley]

Anyone know the details of the research that led to the ID. It is most unusual for CWGC or the MoD to undertake that sort of project off their own bat.

[tootrock]

Once someone had decided to do the research it would not have been too difficult, as Rank, Regiment, and Date of Death were all known from the burial return.

 

Martin

[John_Hartley]

Thanks for that, Martin - never thought to look at the documentation. I'm getting lazy in my old age. As you say, an easy job once someone found the burial sheet. A bit surprising that he was previously just an "unknown CSM", rather than an "unknown CSM of the West Surreys".

[MelPack]

A full report with photographs of the re-dedication service here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rededication-service-held-for-serviceman-who-died-6-weeks-before-the-end-of-world-war-1

[laughton]

I hope members do not mind but I have been wadding through some of the past cases to see how they are handled by the CWGC when there are no burial returns. This came about due to a few cases where an UNKNOWN was to be identified because he was the ONLY ONE missing of that rank and battalion. In a recent case the CWGC sent to us to review, it was clear that the man they thought they had identified was incorrect as he had another known burial site. You need to have more than JUST ONE piece of evidence.

 

The GRRF for this lad was shown here, just to note that it says he died on 29 September 1918 not 28 September 1918. That is fine with me as a day or two in these records is completely understandable, particularly where the records report deaths in the late night and early morning times. It is good that we can document that the CWGC is flexible on that time line. More often than not, the death is reported the following day, after the battle.

 

The records have been changed but the CWGC web site today still says:

 

"Please note that this casualty is currently commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial. The headstone on the grave is presently to that of an unknown Company Serjeant Major and will be changed shortly."

 

There is no change on the GRRF to indicate to any other researcher that the case has been resolved? I believe that we need to have a system whereby another researcher who sees this GRRF knows that this file has already been investigated - not necessarily solved, just that there are others working on this case. I had suggested to the CWGC that a notation be added to the file on the database when a report had been filed, regardless of whether it had been approved or accepted.

 

The cemetery page says:

 

"There are now 573 First World War casualties buried or commemorated in this cemetery. Seven of the burials are unidentified and special memorials commemorate three casualties known to have been buried in the cemetery, but whose graves could not be located."

 

Has anyone checked to see if the QRWSR was there at the time? They must have updated the database but not the page as the page says 567 identified but if you download the dataset it say 568, so one more has been added.

 

There are two others of the regiment in that cemetery, Private Robert Ellinor #12331 from 7 June 1917 and Private RIch # G/25996 from 3 October 1918. Rich suggests that the unit was in the vicinity in the fall of 1918 - and he is in 3.B.28 just a few stones away. He was 11th Battalion, Gale was 10th Battalion. Were both battalions there at the time? Has anyone checked?

 

I wonder if we contacted the CWGC whether we could get a copy of the report on this case. Has anyone asked?

 

If you were looking at Lieutenant Eaves of the same regiment tonight - would you know that we are already investigating his case? Probably not.

 

Edited 4 January , 2017 by laughton
typo on battalion number

[laughton]

Found the war diary for that day, as I recalled it was available on-line. That is one major hike they went on for the attack!

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/10Bn_Queens/10Bn_Queens_1918/10Bn_Queens_1918_09.shtml

 

On 28 September 1918 they marched from BRANDHOEK 28.G.12.a.9.8 to Hill 60 28.I.29.c.9.1 where they assembled in battle formation and prepared to attack the enemy. Then on the 29 to 30 September the battalion attacked and gained all objectives on the line of the River Lys between COMINES 28.P.34.d.6.4 and WERVICQ 28.Q.25.b.5.5.

 

That is where the date of death the 28th or 29th becomes important. If, as the CWGC says, he died on 28 September 1918 then it was during the long hike from BRANDHOEK to HILL 60, in which case they may have passed through the area of the Belgian Battery Corner Cemetery, which is 2 km southwest of Ypres town centre. Belgian Battery Corner is located at 28.H.24 .c.9.0. The cemetery is at 28.H.24.c.5.1.

 

They have marched 8,000 yards by the time they reach Belgian Battery Corner, or about half-way to Hill 60. Was he killed along the route on the 28th? If he was killed on the 29th, as reported on the GRRF he would have already marched another 10,000 yards to reach the battle area. If he was killed there, they would not have taken him all the way back to Belgian Battery Corner for burial - that is just too far away.

 

Now consider this in light of our case for Lt. Eaves, also of the 10th Battalion QRWSR at the Somme in October 1916. Here we are concerned that we have to be able to place him in a battlefield grave only 500 yards away from where the unit was in action at the time. He is the only Lieutenant of the 10th QRWSR missing but we need to place him at the burial location to make the case.

 

There were 596 Company Serjeant Majors and 104 Company Sergeant Majors lost in Belgium during the Great War. Assuming all the CSM-J are British and the CSM-G are commonwealth others, then we have 154 CSM-J on the Menin Gate Memorial and 114 on the Tyne Cot Memorial. For the CSM-G they are all on Menin Gate and there are 52. Specifically for the "The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)" there is one CSM-J on Tyne Cot (Robson #T/201217) and three on the Menin Gate Memorial (Clayton #L/11406; Stemp #L/5275 and Rand #L/8271).

 

Would the CWGC accept a case from the outside where the remains were displaced thousands of yards? Is that more feasible than the date or regiment being incorrect?

[TEW]

Quote

Has anyone checked to see if the QRWSR was there at the time?

 

I've just checked the Medical diaries for Sept 1918 and can say that Belgian Battery Corner ADS (H.24.a.5.8) was part of the designated chain of evacuation for men of the 41st Division (including Gale).

 

A difficult evacuation process! Taken from ADMS of 41 Division 29/9/1918.

 

More details and references if needed.

TEW

[TEW]

laughton,

 

Just to add evidence to some of what you say;

Quote

That is where the date of death the 28th or 29th becomes important.

 

Casualty Statistics; 41 Div. ADMS. 28/8/1918

 

Quote

They must have updated the database but not the page as the page says 567 identified but if you download the dataset it say 568, so one more has been added.

 

Actually there's an ALIAS who has two entries that bump up the total. The Identified Casualties: 567 and the 568 record(s) match your search criteria is down to OCHS and OATES being one and the same man. This is not apparent from the GRRFs.

 

DMS 2nd Army, 41 Div. ADMS, 35 Div. ADMS, 19 Corps DDMS and 105th Field Ambulance diaries all concur that Belgian Battery Corner ADS was manned by 105th Field Ambulance at the time of Gale's death and it was part of the designated chain of evacuation for Gale. The only disparity between them is that 35 Div. ADMS refers to it as an MDS and 19 Corps DDMS says in the summary of the 41st Div. its walking wounded came into Belgian Battery Corner. Whereas 105th Field Ambulance opened Belgian Battery Corner for Stretcher Cases.

 

Photo of Belgian Battery Corner ADS

 

TEW

 

 

[laughton]

Thanks for the research - fantastic! So, if I may ask the question, what do you think:

1. He died on the 28th and was close to that burial site and made only a short trip to Battery Corner.
2. He was wounded on the 29th and was a stretcher case that was taken back to Battery Corner, where he died.

Generally, if it was a wounded case going back to the ADS they would know who it was and so they are not normally UNKNOWN. I say generally, not always, as GOULD at Ecoivres is a classic example - he got lost in the paperwork.

 

Is there anything in his file to tell us where he was when wounded?

 

I assume (as in I do not know the answer) that if he was KIA on the 29th far-far-away, they would not have used precious resources to transport him back to Battery Corner for burial. That is a topic I have never researched - did they transport dead back for burial?

[TEW]

Gale has a service record and a Pension record on findmypast. Ancestry only seem to have the Service file. Nothing in that giving details of death beyond what's already known.

Poignant letter from his wife to the regiment dated 18/10/1918 asking where he was as she hadn't heard from him for over a month. Then a letter dated 21/10/1918 saying she had heard from Lieut. Burgoyne? about his death.

 

I can check the pension record later unless someone else wants to look.

 

The service file IDs him as being CSM of A Coy. which may help in plotting his movements 28-29 Sept.

 

Normally I'd plough through Division & Brigade diaries as well as Gale's battalion diary and the flanking battalions to find anything that would help tighten down where he should have been and his objectives during the action.

 

Then cross-ref all that against the medical diaries and plot out all the RAPs, Relay Posts, ADS etc. There are a lot of relay posts as the roads were badly damaged.

 

There are 7 entries on CWGC for men buried at Belgian Battery Corner Cemetery that died 28-29 Sept 1918 and Gale is the only one described on SDGW as KIA, all the others are DOW so something is different about Gale's case. 5 of the above share a grave (B22) all died 28th. Gale is reported as KIA on the 28th but is two graves away.

 

I doubt he'd be transported dead a long distance for burial during the action but he may have died en route and arrived at the ADS and marked 'Brought in Dead' which may earn him the KIA.

 

I did look at all the GRRFs for Belgian Battery yesterday and noticed some sheets have a lot of amendments (crossed out etc) and you never know with the GRRFs that 'cancel all previous reports' that he may have been IDd on a previous report and a paperwork error caused him to become an unknown. Or perhaps he never made it to the ADS and was one of the few who was found and cleared from the field days later?

 

Then there's another A. Gale 16373 Royal Berks in the same cemetery, perhaps that added to the confusion?

TEW

 

 

 

[laughton]

It would be nice to have a look at the CWGC-MOD report on this case. If we reverse places, I can see them asking for proof that he was transported back to the burial site, otherwise they could not be sure it was him.

 

I assume that since I am Canadian that I can not file a FOI request in the UK.

Edited 5 January , 2017 by laughton

[TEW]

No idea about the FOI request.

 

Just to add that the diary (WO 95/2642/3) for 124th Infantry Brigade has an Operation Order dated 25/9/1918 for the forthcoming attack.

 

Table A of that Op. Order gives the route to be taken by the 10th Royal West Surreys to their form up position at Zero + 1hr & 5Mins. They start at KNOLLY'S FARM and are heading to Biviouc area A with the start point being given as INN CORNER H.14.b.5.8. The route is ID'd as H.18.c.9.0 to Road Junction at H.24.a.6.2.

 

So he passed within 250 yards of the Belgian Battery ADS & Cemetery on the way to form up.

 

They also have a narrative of events for 28th & 29th Sept. giving times, locations and objectives for the 124th Infantry Brigade and the 10th RWS.

TEW

[David_Underdown]

1 hour ago, laughton said:

I assume that since I am Canadian that I can not file a FOI request in the UK.

 

Nothing to stop a non-UK citizen filing an FOI request in general (obviously with MOD, not CWGC, I don't think CWGC are covered by FOI).

[Coldlunch]

The Freedom of Information Wiki has a list of organisations not subject to FOI Act CWGC is one of them

 

https://foiwiki.com/foiwiki/index.php/Organisations_and_officials_with_public_responsibilities_that_are_not_subject_to_the_Freedom_of_Information_Act