What does “Missing” actually mean?

[alanthorpe]

Hi there,

Thank you for such an informative thread on the 'missing' soldiers. I was wondering about what this actually meant in real terms too.

My Great Grand Uncle was initially reported as missing on the 3rd of May 1917 at Arras, reported in the local newspaper by his parent's, looking for information, in June 1917 and then another news report later in July that year, has him reported as Killed in Action on the 5th May 1917.

I am trying to understand what would have happened in these stages, for his family to be posting in the paper for his whereabouts, who could respond in these cases when there were thousands of casualties day after day as the war continued, it's mind boggling really, especially given the communication at hand back in 1917, no internet or immediate updates then. I guess the family received a telegram from the regiment, listing him as missing and then they made an appeal to the newspaper for more information. But i'm only guessing!

It's a puzzle that I am trying to solve, as the disparity between dates of him being listed as 'Missing' on 3rd May and then 'Killed' on 5th May. Surely the two dates should match? Or is it simply when they discovered the remains of the poor man.

The last piece of information that doesn't add up, is that Harold Pryme, my Great Grand Uncle, is interred in Cologne, many miles from the battlefield in Arras. On the CommonWealth War Graves Commission website, Harold is listed as Killed in Action. If he was captured and a PoW, would this not read different? And also, if it was only 2 days going from missing to passing away, would he not have been buried in a site closer to Arras, on the German side?

If anyone here may be able to help answer some of my questions, I would be very grateful indeed. This forum is an amazing tool for understanding much more about the war than possible through any other site or books for that matter!

Apologies if this post is in the wrong place by the way, I may have just latched on to the 'missing' topic!

Looking forward to reading your replies!

Cheers,

Alan

[alanthorpe]

Oh I forgot to mention that Harold Pryme was in 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, Pte. 19853.

I was in the process of trying to find out if he was indeed made a PoW, but the International Red Cross are not dealing with any requests, as they are digitizing their records for 2014.

Cheers!

Alan

[phil andrade]

This doesn't make sense, does it, Alan?

The Germans did claim to have captured large numbers of British troops in the May 1917 fighting in the Arras sector.

Some of these must have been badly wounded, and died of their wounds in the hands of the enemy.

That your great grand uncle was such a casualty is hardly surprising, but for the CWGC to have made such a dog's breakfast of recording his fate is disconcerting, to say the least.

Phil (PJA)

[johnboy]

How often were 'returns' put in. Was it done weekly, daily or just after a battle? Were names of those missing given or were they just tallied up with regards to roll calls and bodies found? Do any reports/ war diaries show any amendments? It must be remembered that those days were overloaded with paperwork and under the pressure of constant shelling paperwork was probably the last thing on the mind.

[alanthorpe]

Hey Phil (PJA), Thanks a lot for your reply there! Yes, it's a bit confusing, but I guess some mistakes with dates or circumstances of their wounding, or worse, were easily made with the sheer numbers of casualties. I've just mailed the CWGC today, as one of the other members of the site here recommended, so I'll see if they can shed some light on it! Thanks for you post, as I didn't know about large numbers of prisoners captured at Arras that year, so it seems to point to Harold being captured alright. Thanks again for taking the time, this site is great for helpful members like yourself! Cheers, Alan.

[alanthorpe]

Hey Johnboy, yes indeed I agree, paperwork and record keeping were no doubt the last thing on the mind of the soldiers during those years of hell on the front, so it's completely understandable if mistakes were made. I have no idea what processes there were in keeping accurate records, but it was some huge task no doubt to try and keep track of all the movements and actions of the soldiers day to day. Thanks for taking the time to reply, it's so helpful in trying to understand the events of 1917. Cheers, Alan.

[johnboy]

It seems a lot of things went on and were not recorded. These things may have been trivial at the time, but may have given next of kin heartache.

I have a relative who is named on Theipval Memorial. This apperently means his body was not found. I queried this on the forum and one or two explanations were given. He may have been buried in a marked grave which was susequently destroyed as there was about 2 yrs of fighting at the place he died.

He could have been blown to bits which is possible bu the battle was more hand to hand. A lot of men from his btn were killed that day but there were normally mopping up parties.

Thiepval lists many thousands of men with no known graves . Imagine how his mother must have felt when she got the news.

[phil andrade]

Hey Phil (PJA), Thanks a lot for your reply there! Yes, it's a bit confusing, but I guess some mistakes with dates or circumstances of their wounding, or worse, were easily made with the sheer numbers of casualties. I've just mailed the CWGC today, as one of the other members of the site here recommended, so I'll see if they can shed some light on it! Thanks for you post, as I didn't know about large numbers of prisoners captured at Arras that year, so it seems to point to Harold being captured alright. Thanks again for taking the time, this site is great for helpful members like yourself! Cheers, Alan.

It's a pleasure to help, Alan.

I'm writing this 100 miles away from home, but I know that somewhere on my bookshelves I have a memoir of a British soldier who was captured in the same fighting as was your GG uncle. I remember enough of the story to observe that it took a long time between capture at Arras and transport back to Germany. He endured bad treatment in the interim, although the soldiers who captured him and the civilians in Germany treated him well. It was the Lines of Communication people and rear area personnel who gave him and his pals a rough time.

There were fatalities along the way. Your GG uncle's burial in Cologne doesn't tie up with date of death posted, or with cause of death.

This certainly merits investigation.

Firing from the hip, so to speak, I think that about 170,000 British and Dominion troops were captured by the Germans on the Western Front, and more than twelve thousand died in captivity, from wounds, gas, disease and, I daresay, maltreatment.

I mentioned Gallipoli earlier on, and alluded to the fact that the proportion of PoWs among the British missing was tiny, and that nearly all the missing were dead. I think the Turks posted about eleven thousand of their battle casualties as missing, andI suppose that they were nearly all dead, too.

Phil (PJA)

[phil andrade]

It seems a lot of things went on and were not recorded. These things may have been trivial at the time, but may have given next of kin heartache.

I have a relative who is named on Theipval Memorial. This apperently means his body was not found. I queried this on the forum and one or two explanations were given. He may have been buried in a marked grave which was susequently destroyed as there was about 2 yrs of fighting at the place he died.

He could have been blown to bits which is possible bu the battle was more hand to hand. A lot of men from his btn were killed that day but there were normally mopping up parties.

Thiepval lists many thousands of men with no known graves . Imagine how his mother must have felt when she got the news.

He might well have been found, but could not be identified, and lies under one of the scores of thousands of headstones marked as A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR, KNOWN UNTO GOD.

Phil (PJA)

[Seadog]

He could of course be still on the battlefield just waiting to be found. You may be interested to learn that at least 75 sets of human remains deemed to be British are presently stored by the CWGC awaiting official release from the MOD to allow for a proper dignified burial which according to the MOD will all take place by July 2014 having done nothing to research the remains for at least 5 years, the figure includes the BL-15 found in 2009 and for whom the MOD is apparently using DNA profiling to attempt identification. Remember that the figure of 75 will increase as further remains are found.

Norman

[seaforths]

The War Office produced weekly casualty lists. These did not go into public circulation until mid 1917. However there was a big delay in the occurrence and their appearance in the lists. Often word reached home by other means first. For example; my granddad's cousin was killed at Beaumont Hamel on the 13th November 1916 and he does not appear in The Scotsman casualty lists until 5th January 1917. I have newspaper cuttings from a local paper dated December that indicate his grandparents (who raised him) heard from his friends that he was wounded, they had since received a letter from Lt. .... bringing sad tidings of his death and he had died from his wounds. He is listed as KIA.

My granddad was wounded and captured in the Arras area (along with 4 others) on 30th September 1917. He is listed in the War Office lists on 22nd November as missing. He is then listed again 24th December as a POW along with 3 others. The missing man died according to CWGC in June 1918, possibly from his wounds or poor treatment and is buried in Germany however, he is not, according to CWGC, buried in the cemetery he was originally interred. I am still trying to find him in the casualty lists to indicate a change of status from missing to ...

The diaries I have indicate how the dead are to be dealt with in quite a few instances via orders. Sometimes it was not possible for mopping up parties to operate. Even those buried by the Padre occurred under fire and despite graves being marked, the ground was churned up over and over.

I found this book very helpful in giving an excellent insight into what happened:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Unknown-Soldier-Neil-Hanson/dp/038560453X

[phil andrade]

From what I've seen of contemporary accounts, the casualties were tabulated for public information too late to reflect the actual time of the incident. For example, the huge British casualties of July 1916 are shown in these accounts to have occurred in August, implying a month's delay. Given the chaos and uncertainty generated by fighting producing two hundred thousand battle casualties in a single month, this is not surprising. When I get home, I can investigate the source and authenticate this.

April and May 1917 produced casualties on a terrible scale, and again it's not to be wondered at if there were mistakes.

But to have a man listed as missing in action at Arras on May 3rd, subsequently posted as killed on May 5th, and then recorded as being buried in Cologne, Germany...... is bizarre.

Phil (PJA)

[seaforths]

From what I've seen of contemporary accounts, the casualties were tabulated for public information too late to reflect the actual time of the incident. For example, the huge British casualties of July 1916 are shown in these accounts to have occurred in August, implying a month's delay. Given the chaos and uncertainty generated by fighting producing two hundred thousand battle casualties in a single month, this is not surprising. When I get home, I can investigate the source and authenticate this.

April and May 1917 produced casualties on a terrible scale, and again it's not to be wondered at if there were mistakes.

But to have a man listed as missing in action at Arras on May 3rd, subsequently posted as killed on May 5th, and then recorded as being buries in Cologne in Germany is bizarre.

Phil (PJA)

Without a doubt it is very bizarre and I also seem to recall a similar thread on this (I will try to locate it). The discussion, as I recall went over the enigma of dates involved and the use of POWs in danger areas at that time by the Germans.

I have also noted that on occasion, when there have been two men with the same surname in the same battalion, the casualty list was incorrect and mixed up the first initial or gave the correct initial and name but the service number of another man with the same surname. It makes researching very challenging. Sometimes, when they have done this, they have printed a correction at a later date but in many cases, I suspect that these errors went unnoticed.

It is a shame that there seems to be nothing documentary that survives on the roll calls they took. The only reason I can pinpoint my granddad exactly is that there was an incident and an immediate roll call was instigated in which 5 men were found to be missing. They were in a remote garrison that could not be reached in daylight. That night, a party was sent out to them led by an officer and they found that all five were gone.

[seaforths]

Found it under 'POW Question'

'several years ago I was given the medals of a soldier killed on 12 March 1917 and buried in Cambrai I was told he was killed by shellfire shortly after being captured. Yesterday I found a newspaper article stating that his wife had received a postcard from him as a POW in Germany and that he was safe and well, it also stated that he had been posted missing in January 1917. The newspaper article was dated 01 March 1917, so can anyone explain how he could have sent a postcard from Germany and then be killed and buried at Cambrai.

thanks in advance'

Illustrates how massively confusing the whole situation was and that the mistakes made were probably quite frequent. Given the circumstances and methods of communications at the time, it must have been horrendously difficult to accumulate the correct facts on individuals, especially if they were then in German hands.

[phil andrade]

Alan, That book that I mentioned in an earlier post is almost tailor made when it comes to speculating on the fate of your GG Uncle.

NO HEROES , NO COWARDS is the memoir of Hawtin Mundy, who served in the OX and Bucks and was captured at Arras on the same day that your GG uncle was reported missing.

He was initially taken to Douai/ Lille, before being taken back to Germany.

He alludes to the forced labour he was subjected to by the Germans, under fire.

"They took you out every day to different jobs. There was a lot of them went up to the front and had to work and were killed. They were never registered as prisoners, no one was, as a matter of fact, till they got right back in Germany.....There were so many of them killed before they was a Prisoner of War because you was not a Prisoner of War until you arrived there at a Registered Camp."

He describes some very bad treatment, which was fatal to some of the prisoners.

Phil (PJA)

[seaforths]

It sounds a very interesting book and I will certainly put it on my list. It would seem to be a bit of a lottery when it came down to processing and treatment. I have also read of POWs given their registration cards to complete while in the holding cages and still being used for labour at the front. There were, I believe, thousands the Germans were unable to account for.

The allies were not totally innocent in this regard either inasmuch as they also used German labour at the Front too. However they seem to have received better treatment once taken away from the front.

[alanthorpe]

Hey there,

This is great, all of your helpful and insightful replies are very much appreciated! Thanks a lot to each one of you.

I'll definitely check out that book Phil (PJA), No Heroes, No Cowards, it sounds like it would give a huge insight into what happened, thanks for that!

Thanks for your very helpful posts Seaforths, SeaDog and JohnBoy, all of your posts are helping to advance my research no end. It's also very interesting hearing the experiences of your own relatives and how your research into how they endured this awful war.

Thanks a million again for your help!

Alan

[Kitchener's Bugle]

The Navy of course tend to use the term "MPK", Missing presumed killed. This is when the body has not been recovered but that the individual was definately on board a vessel, usually during combat at sea.

[phil andrade]

One or two more contributions on my part....

The contemporary jouranlistic compendium of the war, which is now available in so many second hand bookshops, throws light on how the casualty statistics were reported and interpreted at the time.

In its review of the year 1916, under the chapter headed The Roll of Honour, the casualty figures were analysed and here is a passage pertinent to the thread :

The most perplexing item in the casualty lists was the missing - 51,959 altogether. A certain number of these fell, many of them wounded, into the hands of the enemy, but it is practically certain that the vast majority were dead.....Regretfully we say that all the evidence pointed to the majority as dead and not prisoners of war.......

So this is how the people at home - at the time - were being advised as to what "missing" actually meant.

The actual numbers provide a daunting challenge. Take this 1917 Arras fighting we've cited, for example. The British armies directly engaged in this offensive posted about 160,000 casualties during six weeks in April and May, of whom some twenty thousand were returned as missing. They captured approximately twenty thousand German prisoners. The Military Effort tabulations show that only 6,109 British soldiers were reported as taken prisoner for all of April and May, 1917, for the entire Western Front. Now take a look at a bulletin issued by Crown Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria, on 13 May 1917, in which he summarised the lessons of the battle of Arras

It is a remarkable fact that we have taken far more prisoners than we have lost during these recent battles

(page 339, The German Army on Vimy Ridge, 1914-1917, Jack Sheldon)

Casualty figures are bound to be problematic, especially in a war of this nature and magnitude. But of all their attributes, none is so perplexing as the meaning of the word " missing".

Phil (PJA)

[seaforths]

Casualty figures are bound to be problematic, especially in a war of this nature and magnitude. But of all their attributes, none is so perplexing as the meaning of the word " missing".

Phil (PJA)

I wholeheartedly agree. Furthermore, in the light of the evidence found on my granddad's cousin I am not sure that any of the classifications were totally accurate. However, my great, great grandparents seemed to have accepted the classification of 'killed' as they had him commemorated on a family grave as such, despite the letter from his Lt. stating he had died from his wounds and communication from his friends stating he was wounded.

Thank you Phil for posting your facts and figures and it certainly puts things into perspective.

[phil andrade]

There were bound to be mistakes. We must be circumspect about the figures. At the same time, I think we should give credit for the effort that was made and the degree of accuracy that was attained, bearing in mind the awful nature of the task.

In contrast with the peoples of some of the other belligerents - nations in which authorities were either unable or unwilling to make a proper account - the citizens of Britain were afforded the most comprehensive and accurate rendition that circumstance allowed.

Phil (PJA)

[seaforths]

There were bound to be mistakes. We must be circumspect about the figures. At the same time, I think we should give credit for the effort that was made and the degree of accuracy that was attained, bearing in mind the awful nature of the task.

In contrast with the peoples of some of the other belligerents - nations in which authorities were either unable or unwilling to make a proper account - the citizens of Britain were afforded the most comprehensive and accurate rendition that circumstance allowed.

Phil (PJA)

This also is very true and we cannot judge by today's standards.

It will also be interesting to see what information emerges from the Swiss Red Cross regarding POWs in 2014 (allegedly).

[phil andrade]

In two defeated empires that were swept away - Tsarist Russia and Austro - Hungary - the proportion of battle casualties that were posted as missing puts this in perspective. Russian casualties, as officially compiled, included 51.7% posted as missing in action; those of the Austro-Hungarians, 44.5%. This, of course, reflects the colossal hauls of prisoners yielded up by the respective armies. But great numbers of them had been killed; and of those millions who entered captivity, the ordeal was fatal for many.

Despite defeat, Germany posted fewer than fifteen per cent of casualties as missing.

Phil (PJA)

[seaforths]

Oh I forgot to mention that Harold Pryme was in 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, Pte. 19853.

I was in the process of trying to find out if he was indeed made a PoW, but the International Red Cross are not dealing with any requests, as they are digitizing their records for 2014.

Cheers!

Alan

Alan, thread here you might find interesting to follow:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188590#entry1838910

[alanthorpe]

Alan, thread here you might find interesting to follow:

http://1914-1918.inv...90#entry1838910

Thanks a million, I'll check that out now! Cheers for this!