Ammunition Handling Regulations

[shippingsteel]

I have a question that has been bothering me for some time now - ever since I picked up my MLE rifle and placed it next to my P1903 bandolier ... hmmm.

So while I was stuffing my carefully prepared chargers of Mk.VI ammunition into the pouches, the obvious question hit me, how goes it with the reloading.?

While many MLE rifles were converted into the CLLE (Charger Loading format) the ones that weren't were still single loaders issued with charger carriers.?

The photo shown below well illustrates the point. Probably pre-war period circa 1910, musketry drills using Long Lee rifles with P'08 W.E. cartridge carriers.

The rifles are either MLM (Lee Metford stocks with finger grooves) or alternatively rebarreled MLE's which retained the existing Lee Metford grooved stocks.

So I would imagine the cartridge carriers are full of SAA loaded in chargers. The question - how does it go from there into the magazine or (cutoff) chamber.?

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

My recently acquired MLE which prompted this question. It is a 1901 BSA that was 'sold on' and issued to the 3MD (Victoria, Australia) still matching and relatively intact.

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

I do not know the answer to your question S>S, but the normal way of issuing ammunition prior to the advent of the charger was in 10 round paper bundles. Presumably these could be carried in the P.'08 cartridge carriers instead of charger loaded ammo.

The practice of issuing ammo in 10 round bundles continued well into WWI as this 1915 bundle wrapper shows. (It is Naval issue). Australia continued issuing bundles between the wars and India continued using bundles through WW2. These were in addition to higher capacity boxes (32 and 48 round) for machine guns.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for the reply TonyE. Yes, loose rounds would be the obvious solution to the problem. So how do those loose rounds go when carried in the P'08 W.E.?

And that also raises the point as to when the marksmen pauses to reload. Empty the magazine and then replace the whole 10 rounds.? No 'mad minute' here.!

Cheers, S>S

[Thunderbox]

Actually, its also possible with most MLEs to load from a charger - even though there isn't a charger bridge. You just balance the charger on the top of the magazine and strip down in the nromal way; if you have the knack, all the rounds will go into the mag, otherwise about three go in, and you have to have to push a couple of times to get the last two in.

[shippingsteel]

That is interesting. I'm sure that experienced troops soon developed an efficient method for reloading. I just wonder what the 'prescribed' regulations have to say.

Knowing the British Army, there would have to be a 'Handbook' which set down in the smallest detail how one was to go about this business properly ... or else.!!

Cheers, S>S

[Wardog]

Nice Wardog-another shot of him- anything more known -which Royal Berkshire battalion? Webbing looks a bit dark in shade. Regards, Paul.

[shippingsteel]

It does appear to be the same group, obviously out on the same 'photo shoot'. I don't have any further information on them, the pic was posted here a while back.

It would be good to get some details on them, who they were and perhaps the date, as I am surprised to see the Lee Metford variant still in use at that late a time.

Are these second-line troops or something.? As not only the MLE been adopted, but also the SMLE has been around for a few years as well, assuming it's ~1910.?

Cheers, S>S

[tootrock]

A couple of comments on the above photo:

The dog handler and the chap on the left of the picture appear to be out of step with all the rest.

Why has the chap second from right got no rifle, belt or equipment.

Just thought I'd ask!

Martin

[Thunderbox]

The dog handler is the Company Commander, the man to his right is probably his batman - so they are not marching as part of the detachment.

The guy without any kit is probably the bloke who brought the tea urn up to the ranges from the cookhouse... not much changes in the Army over the odd century or so...

I hope someone can identify the unit, but the MLEs could mean they are TA, militia, OTC - even a long-gone historic unit such as the still-existing Atholl Highlanders (who, IIRC, are still equipped with the MLE to this day!)

[nigelfe]

Highly unlikely to be a 'Regulation', some armies worked that way but not UK. Drills were a different matter altogether. If there was an approved method then most likely in a SA training pam prepared by the School of Musketry or whatever it was called.

[Wardog]

Could the Sgt behind the dog have his pouches on the wrong sides-or could it be a form of Territorial webbing? I would say the badge is Royal Berkshire. Regards, Paul.

[IRC Kevin]

Could the Sgt behind the dog have his pouches on the wrong sides-or could it be a form of Territorial webbing? I would say the badge is Royal Berkshire. Regards, Paul.

Don't think these are regulars, as there's too much variation in dress. Sergeant in centre wearing fingerless mitten, some wearing gloves and some not- doesn't seem to be up to the standard regulars would have to uphold. A tad too few moustaches for the era for reguars too.

Edited to add: The one man who does look of 'proper military bearing' is the NCO on the extreme left front (possibly a corporal, but I can't see his chevrons clealry).

[shippingsteel]

I linked this thread over in the Uniform & Cap Badge department to get some more thoughts on the unit - seems Royal Berks is the concensus. (see HERE)

And I was thinking it's starting to look more like an early wartime training unit, which would explain the use of the much older rifles, freeing up more SMLE's.

Cheers, S>S

[Wardog]

If you image search for Royal Berkshire dog it would seem this picture was used by the Daily Mail and France 1914 is stated. Early war territorial other ranks would have had T S/Ts but they look the standard single curve of Royal Berks in the firing line picture. If a service battalion would they have had webbing early in the war? Regards, Paul.

[shippingsteel]

Also looking back at the photo in the OP ... they are practicising firing from a shallow trench, which surely would indicate an 'early war' timeframe.?

I may be wrong but I don't think there were many who envisaged, prior to the war, the level of entrenching which would take place in actual event.?

Cheers, S>S

[Thunderbox]

I respect that the original Daily Mail credit may be correct if it is contemporary, but otherwise I doubt very much these photos were taken in France.

- If the troops had been in France, then there would be at least a hundred and fifty (company strength) available for such a publicity shot - as well as evidence of the other company officers and NCOs;

- they'd also be in proper marching order, rather than just looking as if they've come out of the Drill Hall;

- their kit and equipment would be more warlike (the OC does not even appear to be armed with a revolver).

I get the overwhelming impression of an English setting - probably just the edge of a local field or shooting range, where they've either dug a short bit of training trench (and where is their digging equipment?) or - more likely - they're simply squatting in an available ditch or culvert for the purposes of the PR photograph.

I think it would be practically impossible to date an early WW1 era photograph from the weapons & uniform. In such a period of vast mobilisation, there'd be all sorts of anachronisms on view (I've read one account where the Kitchener recruits were issued Crimean war era uniforms as a temporary measure), and equipment issues would be at the mercy of the mobilisation programme (e.g. even regular units were stripped of Clansman radio and small arms at the time of the 1982 Falklands War. A TA unit near me were back on A41 radios and No4 rifles for six months. A modern historian would never guess the correct date for a photograph of that unit!).