Enfield Butt Disk

[Incitatus]

I have a MkIII that I shall post here as soon as I can get some pictures. It is dated 1915 and is pretty homogeneous. I would like to get a butt disk which is the only missing piece as far as I can see. Any thoughts as to where I might look? ebay currently has one with the initials R.A.F. which sounds a bit dodgy to me.

Thanks.

[TonyE]

Remember that by 1916 most butt discs had been removed so your rifle is quite correct without one.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

I agree with Tony.

If you must have a disc then I would suggest looking for a blank one (pretty common) -- but be aware - there are large numbers of "replica" marking discs available both blank and marked up. Don't forget you will also need the screw to hold it. These can sometimes be harded to find than the discs themselves!

I haven't seen the disc you mention, but RAF marked discs are not uncommon so there is no reason to be automatically suspicious just because it is RAF marked. I suspect that large numbers of SMLEs in RAF service in the inter-war and earl WWII period had their discs marked, and the No1 stayed on in service with RAF station security etc long after the No4 was being introduced into front line Army service (I suspect that RAF rifles would also have had less use, and therefore a higher chance of surviving). So - unless there are other good reasons for doubting the veracity of the marking (font and thin shiny brass are the usual giveaways) I wouldn't automatically dismiss it.

Chris

[5thBatt]

Remember that by 1916 most butt discs had been removed so your rifle is quite correct without one.

Regards

TonyE

What makes you say this?? butt discs are common in WW1 photos dated after 1916 & ALL 1918 MkIII* rifles that appear to be in original condition that i have seen, have discs.

[TonyE]

They may have butt discs but they are almost certainly blank. Unit marked butt discs were to be removed to prevent the Germans recovering rifles which told them the unit they were fighting in the line opposite.

Post war it seems many rifles had their discs replaced which may be why you are bold enough to say ALL 1918 rifles you have seen have discs!.

Regards

TonyE

[Thunderbox]

I don't think butt disks were ever dropped because of the enemy being able to identify the troops - after all, the casualties were all covered in regimental badges, flashes and buttons! Both sides always had a very detailed knowledge of the units opposite them in the line.

I think the reason butt disks stopped being marked after 1916 was down to the sheer turnover of rifles being back-loaded and re-issued. All casualties' rifles and web equipment was salvaged and sent to the rear for re-issue. Rifles appear to have been refurbished, and then matched up with battle casualty replacements at the main rear area depots/training centres, such as Etaples.

You can see how pointless it would become to keep regimental markings on rifles: a typical battalion of c.1,000 men would have almost a complete turnover within a year or so, especially if it had been in any big attack. The original stock of 1,000 rifles would have also largely gone during the year - fed back into the replacement system. Some battalions had at least 5,000 men during WW1 - hence the rifles would have also been turned over five times each on average.

I think you can also detect this process by looking at the butt disks that have survived on their original rifles - there is a very high preponderence of non-infantry units, ie ASC, Artillery, Engineers, small special units, etc.

[5thBatt]

I'm with Thunderbox, as for "all 1918 rifles" this is not what i said, i said "ALL 1918 MkIII* rifles that appear to be in original condition" i have seen some without them but on closer examination they turn out to have had wood work replaced or the hole plugged.

There are many good undicked with 1917 & 1918 SMLE's in NZ as when the troops were returning home they handed their used battle rifles in & were issued new rifles to bring home, finding a good pre 1917 NZ marked WW1 SMLE here in NZ is hard, of my NZ marked rifles,i have one dated 1916 & six dated 1918 the 1916 has a barrel date of 1918 & one of the '18s has a '39 Lithgow replacement barrel, but all have matching numbers & correct factory markings to the butts, all have the "swell" LHS of the forend & all have butt discs, trust me...i have seen many more.

All the discs on these rifles are blank except for the Lithgows which have the Lithgow inspection stamp on the face.

NZ marked rifles

1916 EFD

1918 BSA

1918 EFD

1918 BSA

1918 NRF

[5thBatt]

1918 SSA

1918 LSA

Aussie marked rifles.

1917 Lithgow

1918 Lithgow

[gew98]

You ****** !....the sight of all these gorgeous SMLE's caused me a good drooling , oi !!.

I don't think butt disks were ever dropped because of the enemy being able to identify the troops - after all, the casualties were all covered in regimental badges, flashes and buttons! Both sides always had a very detailed knowledge of the units opposite them in the line.

I think the reason butt disks stopped being marked after 1916 was down to the sheer turnover of rifles being back-loaded and re-issued. All casualties' rifles and web equipment was salvaged and sent to the rear for re-issue. Rifles appear to have been refurbished, and then matched up with battle casualty replacements at the main rear area depots/training centres, such as Etaples.

You can see how pointless it would become to keep regimental markings on rifles: a typical battalion of c.1,000 men would have almost a complete turnover within a year or so, especially if it had been in any big attack. The original stock of 1,000 rifles would have also largely gone during the year - fed back into the replacement system. Some battalions had at least 5,000 men during WW1 - hence the rifles would have also been turned over five times each on average.

I think you can also detect this process by looking at the butt disks that have survived on their original rifles - there is a very high preponderence of non-infantry units, ie ASC, Artillery, Engineers, small special units, etc.

What is the backstory on this pic - if known ?.

[Thunderbox]

You ****** !....the sight of all these gorgeous SMLE's caused me a good drooling , oi !!.

What is the backstory on this pic - if known ?.

I don't think the photo is attributed anywhere, but it just shows part of the normal battlefield salvage process - hundreds of casualties' rifles being gathered up prior to backloading. Probably all these rifles would be sent to a rear base depot, where they'd be cleaned, repaired and refurbished. Reading various accounts of later war reinforcements and returning convalescents, it appears that most of these men were issed with their rifle and webbing once they got to France. Hence it seems that small arms followed a similar process to casualty evacuation - ie they were immediately sent all the way to the rear before being sorted out and reissued. The rear area base depots is presumably where all the thousands of rifles sent back to factories were sorted out.

There are hundreds more rifles in the background. Another picture similar to this one also shows a great mountain of webbing equipment.

Rather sobering to think that each rifle represents an injured or killed soldier....