Archaeology Gallipoli

[Guest]

My point (badly put) on Mackenzie's recollections and the DNB on Hogarth's alleged meeting is that both cant be right The minute detail in Mackenzie's account correlates with very important events at GHQ MEF (the Gallipoli campaign and the detailed planning for the Suvla landings in early August). i.e I think Mackenzie's account is very likely to be accurate..... Mackenzie was an avid diarist so there is likely to be an account somewhere, but sadly not in Gallipoli Memories as it stops as he heads for Athens. Aubrey Herbert was also on the staff at the time - I understand his family was heavily involved in archaeology, particularly in Egypt.

[michaeldr]

For those intrepid pilgrims who want to have a look at Auden's well, then we have a contemporary map. It also exemplifies the old maxim that whatever you want, it's always at the join of two sheets: this one was put together the old fashioned way, with cello-tape.

Having first checked the satellite/aerial version on Google, I am fairly sure that it is the well shown at 104W5-6

Can anyone pin-point the position of Auden's 2nd South Midland Mounted Brigade Field Ambulance?

[seaJane]

Aubrey Herbert was also on the staff at the time - I understand his family was heavily involved in archaeology, particularly in Egypt.

There might be something on Aubrey Herbert's involvement in his grand-daughter's biography of him: Margaret FitzHerbert, The man who was Greenmantle (John Murray, 1983, or Oxford Paperbacks, 1985).

[horatio2]

Hogarth merits a couple of brief mentions (concerning Lawrence) in James Barr's recent book "A Line in the Sand". The relevant notes refer to the Hogath Papers in the Middle East Centre Archive, Oxford.

[Guest]

I have posted a documentary, in the Culture part of the Forum, that may have some relevant information? (I haven't watched it yet)

T E Lawrence and Arabia. BBC documentary

Click

Mike

[BJanman]

Can anyone pin-point the position of Auden's 2nd South Midland Mounted Brigade Field Ambulance?

Wow, love the pictures of Capt Auden - just perfect when you can put a face to a name.

Below is the information I have on the unit's movements:-

The unit was sent to Sulva Bay on 17th August, arriving on the beach at 2.30 a.m. the next morning. They then went on a long march. On the night of 20th-21st, they took up a position under cover of ‘Lala Baba’, and at 3.00 p.m. on 21st a bombardment began - The Division of Dismounted Yeoman advanced on foot and the the unit followed closely, ‘across a plain of some 3 or 4 miles’ width, covered with low scrub and small trees.’ Casualties were heavy and so half-way across the plain they were forced to halt and open a dressing station.

The Division then formed up under cover at Chocolate Hill. The unit followed and was placed on the reverse side - they began digging trenches to treat the wounded. On the morning of 22nd, they were constantly shelled, so at 11.00 a.m. moved outside into the plain and formed a dressing station there, returning to Chocolate Hill during the night and continued digging safe dugouts. They remained there for a fortnight.

On 4th September, the Division took over a section of trenches to the south of Chocolate Hill - the unit was divided into two parts:-

an A.D.S. with a number of bearers in a support trench

a M.D.S. on the beach, beside a number of other field ambulances and a CCS.

They appear to have remained there until they were evacuated off of Gallipoli.

Regards

Barbara

[michaeldr]

Barbara,

Many thanks for those details of Auden's unit's movements

If the good doctor had any spare time, then it seems that he was never very far away from the well and the inscriptions which interested him.

E.g; my calculations put Chocolate Hill only about a mile and a half away, or less.

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Barbara has mentioned that - On 4th September, the Division took over a section of trenches to the south of Chocolate Hill - the unit was divided into two parts:-

an A.D.S. with a number of bearers in a support trench

a M.D.S. on the beach, beside a number of other field ambulances and a CCS.

They appear to have remained there until they were evacuated off of Gallipoli

Below is a map showing the trench system as at the evacuation in December 1915

I am guessing here, but imagine that Dr Auden would have been busiest at the beginning (18th Aug onwards)

and that it was during this later time (4th Sept - Dec) that Dr. Auden had some time free in which to explore his surroundings, including the well and its inscriptions

[Guest]

The history of the Great War, Medical Services (Vol 4) has a map of Suvla showing the locations of the Advanced Dressing Stations, Field Ambulances and Casualty Clearing Stations. There were two ADS immediately to the rear (i.e West side) of Chocolate Hill and another located roughly where the well below the 'E' in SECTION on the map Michael shows above.

No.14 Casualty Clearing Station was located on C Beach "..about 1,000 yards south of Lala Baba hill. No.26 CCS ...opened in a gully protected by rocky ground about one mile east of Suvla Point. No 53 CCS also went to Suvla Bay and landed on 11th and 13th Aug just north of the entrance to Salt lake. No 54 CCS was the last of the casualty clearing stations sent to the peninsula. It opened alongside No.26 on 18th October."

I think the beach location of the ADS must have been adjacent to No.14 CCS directly south of Lala Baba.

MG

Edit. Here is the area with the locations of 14 CCS, the Well with the Greek inscriptions and the 2nd Mtd Div Reserve Area trenches. The distance from the 14th CCS area to the Greek well is 800 yards and was immediately on the side of the road (as it is now.) In 1915 it was known as ANZAC Road and the road slightly north, close to the edge of the salt lake was known as Yeomanry Road. The image is Google Earth with the Sevki Pasa maps overlaid in 50% opacity. MG

[Guest]

Map from the Medical Services volume...

Edit. "The Diary of a Yeomanry Medical Officer" by Capt O Teichman has a sketch map opposite page 38 which shows the same ADS as the man on this post. The southern most of the two behind Chocolate Hill is the 4th Bde Field Ambulance. It also confirms the location of the CCS south of Lala Baba on C Beach.

MG

Edited 30 December , 2016 by Guest

[michaeldr]

Many thank Martin; that's a marvellous visualisation of the area where Dr. Auden was working

[michaeldr]

SeaJane,

Many thanks for your info from the DNB.

It's particularly interesting to see that Hogarth was involved in the eastern Mediterranean as early as 1914, well before he became officially a commissioned member of naval intelligence.

I agree with Martin that Compton Mackenzie's recollection contradicts the record of a meeting with Hogarth in Athens in July, but such a meeting could easily have happened later the next month.

That last of mine (such a meeting could easily have happened later the next month) must be wrong,

as SJ's quote from the DNB already shows Hogarth in Cairo in August, and then back in the UK.

In July Captain Compton Mackenzie RMLI was busy on Mytilene, helping to get the Suvla landings off to a good start by propagating a diversionary rumour that the objective was an Anatolian landing.

As Martin has pointed out CM went off to Athens on sick-leave on 12^th August. Having recovered, he managed to get himself made Military Control Officer (code letter 'Z') working under 'R' a Major Samson, who in turn operated under 'C', the head of MI 1.

On 12^th September Compton Mackenzie was back in Kephalo, on Imbros, to wrap-up his affairs there, before returning to Athens and his new espionage job.

It is at this point that his name is mentioned in connection with the British School. Athens in particular and Greece in general, was thick with the spies of all nations at this time and to try and keep track of them all CM began a card index which eventually contained details of 23,000 individuals. This card index was held at the British School and run for him there by the school's librarian. It is possible that CM met Hogarth at the British School some time after the latter returned east from England; say early November 1915?

[details from 'A Marine or Anything' by Capt. John M. Coleby RM rtd, the second part of a booklet published by the Royal Marine Historical Society, titled Royal Marine Spies of World War One Era]

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Although it now appears highly unlikely that Auden met Hogarth on Gallipoli, and that probably Cairo in 1916 was the venue where they discussed the Suvla inscription, nevertheless Hogarth himself remains an intriguing character. I came across this photograph of him in one of Lowell Thomas' books on Lawrence (see http://www.archive.o...e/n263/mode/2up)

[michaeldr]

On 6/23/2013 at 08:30, The Plummed Goose said:

for those interested I can provide two items on the subject : (1) "Archaeology in Gallipoli in 1915", a paper by Prof Chris Mackie (also part of the survey team that has been coming here now for 3 years) and (2) a summary (english) of Prof.Julia Tzvetkova's book "History of the thracian Chersonese". Please e-mail me at eric(at)gallipoli(dot)com(dot)tr

 

After several seasons, the team referred to by Eric have now published a book on their work :

 

ANZAC Battlefield – A Gallipoli Landscape of War & Memory

edited by Antonio Sagona, Mithat Atabay, C. J. Mackie, Ian McGibbon & Richard Reid,

Cambridge University Press [© Department of Veterans' Affairs 2016]

ISBN 978-1-107-1174-5

 

It has just arrived here (thanks to a recommend from b3rn) so I am dipping into it at the moment and the first chapter 'Boundary and divide – The antiquity of the Dardanelles' provides a good background to the subject of this thread. [The writers of the chapter (Mackie, Atabay, Körpe & Sagona) would have benefited from closer attention to this thread however – Hogarth was Navy and a Commander; not an army Captain as they have suggested on p.17] The chapter's final four pages give interesting details of the civilian life on the peninsula immediately before the outbreak of the Great War, with figures for the ethnic make-up of the communities and information about their diet and daily lives.

Edited 18 August , 2016 by michaeldr

[Alastair]

General Hunter-Weston's personal diary contains a photograph of huge storage jars found when the French were digging reserve trenches. It's probably archaeological work that remains to be done, but unlikely now.

[trajan]

On 12/30/2016 at 20:17, Alastair said:

General Hunter-Weston's personal diary contains a photograph of huge storage jars found when the French were digging reserve trenches. It's probably archaeological work that remains to be done, but unlikely now.

 

Sounds like they could be pithoi - large storage jars used from the Bronze Age down into the 'Byzantine' period. The larger ones were well over 1.0 m. tall and could contain up to 1,000 litres.

[bob lembke]

Trajan;

 

On the topic of archaeologists and Turkey, did you ever come across (or hear of) Dr. Elisabeth Simpson, who worked with King Midas' funerary furniture?  

[Phil Wood]

There are very different reactions to ancient ruins - the main city at the western end of the peninsula was Elaeus. In the UK it would be an incredibly important site - the Turks built a WW1 warmemorial on top of it. The crowds getting off their buses and visiting the memorial barely notice the Greek walls they walk through.

 

Turkey has numerous more impressive sites, I guess Elaeus is not up to scratch.

 

[trajan]

On 1/2/2017 at 00:47, bob lembke said:

Trajan;

 

On the topic of archaeologists and Turkey, did you ever come across (or hear of) Dr. Elisabeth Simpson, who worked with King Midas' funerary furniture?  

 

On 1/2/2017 at 01:58, Phil Wood said:

There are very different reactions to ancient ruins - the main city at the western end of the peninsula was Elaeus. In the UK it would be an incredibly important site - the Turks built a WW1 warmemorial on top of it. The crowds getting off their buses and visiting the memorial barely notice the Greek walls they walk through.

 

Turkey has numerous more impressive sites, I guess Elaeus is not up to scratch.

 

 

I know, musn't go off topic, but yes to the first and I agree to the second.

 

Back on topic, as it were, not that I have looked exhaustively, but I have never yet come across any Ottoman record of interest in archaeological sites or finds made during WW1 although there are a reasonable few such from the sides of both the Allied and Central Powers. I guess that is partly because Turkey was only just entering its 'archaeological childhood' so to speak (thanks to Osman Hamdi Bey), but probably more so because of the generalised lack of interest in past times found even today among many Muslims - especially if it is the non-Muslim past! Thus the concern among the local workers when we find a skeleton in the uppermost levels at Gordion, a site that lies splat-bang in the middle of the Sakarya battlefield: first question is whether or not it is a Turk or a Greek, and if the latter then interest drops off immediately but if the former second question is - can we go and tell the local Imam now!

[bob lembke]

Elisabeth Simpson is an old friend of mine. Despite being a "master of off-topicry", I will restrain myself and PM you. 

[trajan]

On 8/18/2016 at 11:54, michaeldr said:

After several seasons, the team referred to by Eric have now published a book on their work : ANZAC Battlefield – A Gallipoli Landscape of War & Memory...

 

I am almost finished reading this, and would like to know what you thought of it. The archaeological approach is sound (although, yes, as they mention, LIDAR is essential), and I certainly cannot comment on their report of the finds and of the campaign itself, but I was disappointed to see that their section of weaponry was not entirely accurate.

 

For example, the statement that the Turks at Gallipoli in 1915 were armed with Gew.98 is simply nonsense. The German army was itself so short of Gew.98 at the start of WW1 (documentary evidence) that they took these from front-line units for reserve units to train with before they went into action, the front line chappies being supplied with one or other type of Gew.88. I know that Gew.98 were supplied to Turkey late in the GW, and Gew.88 were being sent over in 1916 - if I recall correctly. But, the basic official weapon used by the Turks at Gallipoli was the Mauser M.1903, with lots of the older rifles around including, as we know from our 'favourite' Ottoman officer, M.74 Peabody-Martini's... 

 

Also, just how many of the ANZAC men at Gallipoli had up-to-date SMLE's as is implied? I have not studied the subject in detail but my memory is that some units at Gallipoli, possibly including ANZAC ones, had MLE's...

 

And as for splintered shell-casings being 'shrapnel', well...

 

Julian

[clive_hughes]

Julian,

The 53rd (Welsh) Division probably had many Long Lee-Enfields.  There is a post-war remark attached to the war diary of 1/7th RWF at Suvla, by its former CO Jelf-Reveley.  He states that on 13-14 Aug. 1915 a Capt. Hardy, ADC to General Lindley, came to enquire why so many unit-marked rifles for 7th RWF had been found abandoned.  Jelf-Reveley duly produced his men, all armed with SMLEs.  These had been picked up by them on the battlefield, having been discarded by the units which preceded them into the fighting (by implication, the two Kitchener divisions).  The RWF men had ditched their own Long Lee-Enfields which he castigated - " these...were so old as to have in many cases almost smooth bores - they had been considered good enough for men who were 'only Territorials'! ".   His protests over this prior to embarkation had been ignored, and he was clearly sore that newer rifles had been handed out to the New Army.  

 

Clive

[bob lembke]

I am translating a memoire written by a Pionier in my father's volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie at Gallipoli, and 13 Turkish and German Pioniere were in a dugout just behind the front lines, and the Allies attacked, and the 13 Pioniere had four rifles between them! Luckily they had a case of hand grenades, and defended the position with a hail of hand grenades until Turkish reinforcements arrived. The German troops had some awful old rifle, perhaps the G 1871. 

[Guest]

Mates,

 

If I remember correctly the AIF also under went the same adjustments at Gallipoli, when they replaced the older Lee Enfield's Marks, as well as different marks of 303 ammo.

 

I can't remember what marks they replaced off hand, only it went on during out stay there.

S.B

[michaeldr]

15 hours ago, trajan said:

And as for splintered shell-casings being 'shrapnel', well...

General Shrapnel's portrait is still to be seen at Larkhill and I doubt he/they would be amused by that.

I must admit that to date I have not yet completed my reading of this book and in view of your remarks I don't think that it is about to move any more quickly up the pile.

regards

Michael