KevinD Posted 3 June , 2013 Share Posted 3 June , 2013 Hello All, I am researching luminous sights for Great War weapons, rifles, Lewis, Hotchkiss and Vickers. I am aware of the Martin luminous foresights issued for rifles and the Radium filled sights that followed. However I have come across some confusing information that I hope somebody can help me with. I have a copy of General Routine Orders for troops on the Western Front dated 6th June 1915 which refers to Phosphorescent Night Sights. The order reads as follows " Approval is given for the issue of phosphorescent night sights (for use with all descriptions of rifle) on a scale of 64 per Battalion, together with one yard of magnesium wire (spare) per sight. Indents should be sent to Ordnance Officers concerned, and issue will be made as supplies become available." My question is why magnesium wire? Can anybody identify the sights being described here and the roll the magnesium wire played? Kind regards. Kevin Driscoll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story Posted 3 June , 2013 Share Posted 3 June , 2013 Apparently, it's originally a photography thing from the early 1880s. The phosphorescent tablet is then " excited " by burning at a fixed distance from it (but preferably as close to it as possible) a given length of magnesium wire. http://books.google.com/books?id=T54OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=%22magnesium+wire%22+phosphorescents&source=bl&ots=doCsBDQi_z&sig=9Cb3rlUSBwpa7IFCLW2oRkxsmco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P7qsUeCKLarD0AGQ3YGwDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22magnesium%20wire%22%20phosphorescents&f=false The descriptive passage at top of page 893 should show you how this translated to weapons' night sights. http://books.google.com/books?id=8tAfAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA863&lpg=PA863&dq=%22magnesium+wire%22+phosphorescents&source=bl&ots=F0wyt6pfnm&sig=RH2v6w0AMWd3-eL4AwVytZARgQc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P7qsUeCKLarD0AGQ3YGwDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22magnesium%20wire%22%20phosphorescents&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinD Posted 4 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2013 Hello "Story" and thank you for your response. So what we are looking at is a phosphorescent tablet embedded in some sort of foresight (I guess) and that tablet is activated by burning the magnesium wire in close proximity. The result is a luminous aiming mark. Have I got it right? I have the List of Changes for the period and I don't recall ever seeing an object like this described however I shall go back through the books tonight. Thank you very much for this guidance. If I learn more I shall post the results. Once more thank you very much. Kind regards. Kevin.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story Posted 4 June , 2013 Share Posted 4 June , 2013 You're more than welcome. I'd be interested in seeing illustrations or pics of an extant example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 5 June , 2013 Share Posted 5 June , 2013 Interesting; a new one to me. Reminds me of holding compasses to a bright light before use to 'wake up' the substance on the dial. I think magnesium burns quickly with a bright flare. This would have to be done under cover to avoid disclosing the shooters position, possibly by a soldier other that the shooter to avoid spoiling the shooters night vision. Or does the luminescence last a long time? Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 5 June , 2013 Share Posted 5 June , 2013 Interesting; a new one to me. Reminds me of holding compasses to a bright light before use to 'wake up' the substance on the dial. I think magnesium burns quickly with a bright flare. This would have to be done under cover to avoid disclosing the shooters position, possibly by a soldier other that the shooter to avoid spoiling the shooters night vision. Or does the luminescence last a long time? Old Tom Its the specific wavelengths of the light produced by the magnesium that's the important factor rather than just the brightness. Once activated the tablet will glow for some time (probably more than a night) so they could be prepared away from the night-time snipers (say in a dug out) and then handed out for the night's duty. I would think that whoever did the preparation would need very dark glasses or goggles anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinD Posted 6 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Hello Guys and thank you for your responses. I think you are both of you are on the right track. No doubt the task would need to be done during the day or in a closed dugout so as not to give the position away. I also agree the it wouldn't be fun burning the magnesium to stimulate the tablet. I have looked through each of the LOC's for 1914 and there is nothing there. I do not have a complete copy of the 1915 LOC's and I need to access a copy and wade through them to see if there is anything there. Likewise I have copies of some 1914 and 1915 Small Arms Committee Minutes however I have nothing there either. Additionally, there is nothing in the training material I have accessed. The Martin luminous sights were introduced by LOC early in 1915 however I don't have any information as to how the "luminosity" was generated. The LOC doesn't mention anything about equipment to support the sight nor does it mention magnesium. But I wonder??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 I believe that such luminous sights were used in the early days of anti Zeppelin flights before electrically lit sights were introduced. Such sights would have to be activated in anticipation of a raid. In the early days the RNAS were responsible for Zeppelin defence and it might be worth looking to see if there is any navy documentation of the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Hi Aeroplane night sights are covered in R Wallace Clarke's 'British Aircraft Armament', Vol. 2, pages 125-129. it mentions that the first night sights had the ring and bead elements treated with luminous paint, but in use these were found to be either too bright or too dim. It continues with information on the 'Hutton Sight' and 'Neame Sight', both of which used red and green electric bulbs. The book also has a short piece on the 'Secretan Sight' which used a 'black velvet substance' on the fore and backsight rings. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Hi Aeroplane night sights are covered in R Wallace Clarke's 'British Aircraft Armament', Vol. 2, pages 125-129. it mentions that the first night sights had the ring and bead elements treated with luminous paint, but in use these were found to be either too bright or too dim. It continues with information on the 'Hutton Sight' and 'Neame Sight', both of which used red and green electric bulbs. The book also has a short piece on the 'Secretan Sight' which used a 'black velvet substance' on the fore and backsight rings. Mike I have the book but I don't think that it covers everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 I have the book but I don't think that it covers everything Hi Centurion Sadly no book covers everything we want, even after 100 years there are gaps in information, particularly on the 'technology' tried out in WW1. Still on the bright side it does give us something to research! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Hi Centurion ...... Still on the bright side it does give us something to research! Mike Given the subject matter, inexcusable! Drinks on you in the bar! Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 I note that the Martin sights also had to be 'charged' from a light source before they could be used and so could be covered by the text quoted in the OP http://www.collectorssource.com/martins-luminous-night-sight-long.html http://www.collectorssource.com/martins-luminous-night-sight.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Given the subject matter, inexcusable! Drinks on you in the bar! Cheers TonyE Oh I thought it was quite good....but I'll take that drink. These are new on me so I am learning here. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Seen a reference in an Indian paper circa 1900 to the use of German luminous sights when hunting. The writer considered this unsporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 6 June , 2013 Share Posted 6 June , 2013 Greetings Gents, Here is a set of the German WWI equivalent. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinD Posted 8 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2013 Hello All, I think I can comfortably conclude the Phosphorescent Night Sights referred to in GRO 831 dated 6th June 1915 are in fact the Martin Sights. Thank you all for your input on this subject. I have obtained a copy of Martin's patent for the night sights and that is attached for reference. Interestingly the composition of the "Luminous" is not defined nor is there any instructions as to how the luminous is excited. Sorry about the pun, but if anybody can throw some light on the tools and procedure to get the Martin sight "excited" I would like to see it. A few more details you may find interesting. The Order to Martin was for 15,000 sights to be delivered at a rate of 3,000 per week commencing 26th June 1915 and being completed by 24th July 1915. The price paid was two shillings per sight. Kind regards to all. Kevin.GB191423433A.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 8 June , 2013 Share Posted 8 June , 2013 All I've ever found (and in relation to luminescence not specifically night sights) is that an intense light of the appropriate colour (wave length) was needed. Before WW1 the right intensity was available by burning magnesium (as did the old flash guns), using an electric arc lamp (or an electric arc welder) and limelight (where calcium oxide is heated by an oxy- hydrogen blow torch flame). Limelight (developed by Faraday C 1820) requires no electricity and is relatively portable but most of the light is in the wrong part of the spectrum. Arc lights would have required a powerful source of electricity so I would guess in a military 'field' environment magnesium wire would be the preferred option. My source for this - well my tired old brain has had it's memory kicked to life to remember as a schoolboy attending Christmas Lectures at Owens (Manchester University) which imitated more famous equivalents in London. The audience I remember had to don dark goggles for the demonstrations which were held in a lecture theatre dedicated to the memory of Professor Frankenstein (yes there was a real one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinD Posted 8 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 8 June , 2013 Good morning Centurion. Thanks for your post. As they say "if you don't use it you lose it" so keep the brain ticking over. What I am finding curious, there is virtually no technical information contained in the Patient description. The luminous material is not identified nor is the procedure for exciting it clarified. As we have discussed, it takes heat to burn a piece of magnesium wire and to do it safely tooling and equipment (dark glasses at least) would be required. Would this type of sight be such a radical breakthrough that publishing technical information would have aided the Germans? Does Martin hold another Patient for the luminous material? More looking to be done. Question for Milatariaone. Thank you for the photos of the German sights. Didn't know the Germans had an equivalent. How do these work? They look to me as if they may be Radium filled? Kind regards. Kevin.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 June , 2013 Share Posted 8 June , 2013 I believe the French also fitted "lumionous" sights to Berthier 07/15 rifles and according to the link below these were called "systeme de visee lumineux" From the descriptions I have seen, and these pictures these appear to be radium paint filled dots on the rear sight (either side of the notch) and a radium paint filled dot on the foresight. Another clip on type is illustrated here Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 June , 2013 Share Posted 9 June , 2013 Good morning Centurion. Thanks for your post. As they say "if you don't use it you lose it" so keep the brain ticking over. What I am finding curious, there is virtually no technical information contained in the Patient description. The luminous material is not identified nor is the procedure for exciting it clarified. As we have discussed, it takes heat to burn a piece of magnesium wire and to do it safely tooling and equipment (dark glasses at least) would be required. Would this type of sight be such a radical breakthrough that publishing technical information would have aided the Germans? Does Martin hold another Patient for the luminous material? More looking to be done. Question for Milatariaone. Thank you for the photos of the German sights. Didn't know the Germans had an equivalent. How do these work? They look to me as if they may be Radium filled? Kind regards. Kevin.. An ordinary photographer's flash tray could be used to burn a piece of magnesium wire which would produce a brilliant flash and not much heat as it would only burn for a fraction of a second so whilst it would be very hot for that fraction the overall amount of heat produced could be easily absorbed by the tray so no safety tooling required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 June , 2013 Share Posted 9 June , 2013 Early flash photography used both magnesium flash powder and wire or ribbon. This photo shows typical dispensers for flash ribbon/wire http://www.earlyphot.../Images/M42.JPG This photo shows the German kit for producing and measuring flashes using wire or ribbon in the early 1920s http://www.earlyphot.../Images/M36.JPG As can be seen no great feat of engineering is required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 June , 2013 Share Posted 9 June , 2013 Contrary to popular tradition radium as used then did not glow in the dark. Radium paint was actually a mixture of radium and zinc sulphide. The zinc sulphide florescences when struck by the radiation from the radium. After about 60 years or so the zinc sulphide stops glowing as the structure is too damaged by the radiation but the radium keeps emitting. Thus WW1 radium painted items may look safe now (ie they don't glow) but run a gieger counter over them and you'll get a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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