hen190782 Posted 25 May , 2013 Share Posted 25 May , 2013 Good Afternoon I am working with Orangelil who is managing the Castleton Lantern Project (http://castletonlanterns.co.uk/?tag=lantern-slides) I have cropped insignia/patch/badge details from several of the slides and am looking for help to identify what they mean - apologies in advance for the quality! There will be another couple of topics with other images. Ref 11 LHS - Insignia above Sgt strips Ref 29 LHS - Regimental Tartan ID Ref 29 LHS - Shoulder flash for the seated man above Ref 64 Centre - Wound Strip ? What are the others? Thanks Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zieminski Posted 27 May , 2013 Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Ref 64 - Cross hatched type Good Conduct Chevron and Marksman above that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 27 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Peter Thanks. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 27 May , 2013 Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Ref 29: The man standing is a soldier of either the Black Watch, 9th (Glasgow Highland) Bn Highland Light Infantry, or the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. All three wore the same Government tartan with the front edge of the hose flashes positioned at the middle of the shin. With plain hose the only way to distinguish between the BW and A&SH would be the pleating on the kilt that is not visible in a frontal view. The man sitting is much more enigmatic The tartan is mostly hidden by what appears to be a kilt apron. I do not recognize the shoulder title L?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 27 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Gordon92 Thanks, I thought the shoulder title was LI ... thought it was maybe Light Infantry? Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 May , 2013 Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Could be 'L.C.'(Labour Corps), as I believe an order was issued sometime in 1918 allowing the wearing of parent unit insignia, after transfer. This was because 'old sweats' who had been transferred into the Labour Corps had been getting some stick from youngsters transferred to the front, who thought they were lead swingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 27 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Graham Possible. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 May , 2013 Share Posted 28 May , 2013 The first image looks like it might show a brass crown above the three stripes with an MG badge incorrectly worn above, but that would be an unusual error, albeit not impossible. The slides look like they have been developed using glass plate methods which normally produces excellent resolution. If you obtain a x20 Linen Tester (magnifier), available on the internet, a lot of the detail will leap out at you. For such examinations they are invaluable. The enigmatic shoulder title is an example in case of something that should be readily identifiable with such an aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 28 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2013 Frogsmile Thanks, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 28 May , 2013 Share Posted 28 May , 2013 Ref 11 LHS - Insignia above Sgt strips I am pretty certain this is: Wreathed MG badge skill-at-arms badge. This, when worn OVER NCO rank badges on the RIGHT (sometimes both) sleeve, as opposed to on the lower LEFT sleeve as is more usual, denoted an Assistant Instructor in the relevant field. The badge worn between this and the sergeants stripes appears to my eye to be the Scottish thistle badge, as neatly illustrated in posts 9 and 12 of the following thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188028 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 28 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2013 This is the full image: There do not seem to be any other indicators to Scottish regiment - and ideas on the cap badge? Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 29 May , 2013 Share Posted 29 May , 2013 There do not seem to be any other indicators to Scottish regiment - and ideas on the cap badge? If it's the one posted in close-up in another thread, I put a post there - artillery, either RFA, RGA, RHA, etc: http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-ROYAL-ARTILLERY-CAP-BADGE-MOVING-WHEEL-VARIETY-100-ORIGINAL-GUARANTEED-/130918455808?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item1e7b591a00#ht_208wt_1251 In which case the thistle wouldn't make sense, and seeing the leather gloves and a the rest of a very smartly turned out NCO would suggest it is the crown that when worn above Segeants stripes deonoted a CSM, Company QM Sjt or Colour Sjt (exact rank/appointment changed during the war). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 29 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Andrew Yes, it is the cap that was posted on the other topic. So am I correct in concluding that this guy was an Assistant Instructor (Machine Guns) with one of the Artillery regiments. Thanks Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 May , 2013 Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Until 1915 both the CSM and CQMS wore three stripes with a large crown over. In the Royal Artillery the same thing applied for the BSM except that a gun was also worn between the two rank badges. In 1915 the CSM and BSM began to wear just the large crown referred to above on the lower sleeve with the gun usually below for the latter. The CQMS was retitled back to an older designation of 'Colour Sergeant' and given a smaller crown to wear above his stripes. It would seem therefore that the man in your photo is either a Colour Sergeant, if infantry, or a BQMS if artillery. A larger image to facilitate examination of his cap badge should enable ID of his regiment, which does not look to me to be a gun type badge of the RA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 29 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Frogsmile Thank you, again. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 29 May , 2013 Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Here's a comparison - the straight line visible towards the base with the points of the scroll visible (plus the overall pointed shape) are very distinctive to the RA cap badges: http://postimg.org/image/eohisxdnv/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 May , 2013 Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Here's a comparison - the straight line visible towards the base with the points of the scroll visible (plus the overall pointed shape) are very distinctive to the RA cap badges: The reflection on the high points does seem to match. I will be interested to see a full image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 29 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Andrew Many thanks, again Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 29 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2013 Frogsmile I have sent the best res version (418kb) that I have to your email address. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 May , 2013 Share Posted 30 May , 2013 Frogsmile I have sent the best res version (418kb) that I have to your email address. Nigel Yes and from that better image I can confirm that he is an artilleryman and probably RFA. The metal badge above his three stripes is the standard SNCOs gun badge and the cap badge is distorted from plain view by the reflections of light on the high points of the badge even in the larger image. Nonetheless it is definitely RA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 May , 2013 Share Posted 30 May , 2013 So what is MG Asst Instr doing in the artillery? Not a lot I hazard a guess. I know of no badge in wreath that might legitimately be worn with the three chevrons and gun of a full sergeant RA. Going through the list DURING THE WAR I stress: L : yes, RA but not worn by senior ranks ........ a gun sergeant who was not layer qualified was unlikely to be real. G: yes, RA but gunnery prize badge lower left, and hardly ever worn in the war. LG HG MG: infantry and cavalry R: rangetaker infantry O: RA : observer but should be lower left and unlikely on a senior rank and the badge in question seems to have two letters. QI: RE only Which is not to say that he is not RA and not an MG instructor but it does make him a little unorthodox. As do the gloves, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 30 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2013 Grumpy If it would help, I could email the higher res image to you - please PM me your email address. I understand that Orangelil, who is managing the Castleton Lantern Slide project, is intending to upload the higher-res images and link to a GWF topic. She has also arranged for a local gallery to professionally scan the images (the present versions are photos of the slides by Orangelil's father). The gloves could just be "props" for the studio photograph. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 May , 2013 Share Posted 30 May , 2013 So what is MG Asst Instr doing in the artillery? Not a lot I hazard a guess. I know of no badge in wreath that might legitimately be worn with the three chevrons and gun of a full sergeant RA. Going through the list DURING THE WAR I stress: L : yes, RA but not worn by senior ranks ........ a gun sergeant who was not layer qualified was unlikely to be real. G: yes, RA but gunnery prize badge lower left, and hardly ever worn in the war. LG HG MG: infantry and cavalry R: rangetaker infantry O: RA : observer but should be lower left and unlikely on a senior rank and the badge in question seems to have two letters. QI: RE only Which is not to say that he is not RA and not an MG instructor but it does make him a little unorthodox. As do the gloves, of course. yes it was the incongrous nature of such a badge on a vaguely potential gunner, and the at first unidentified gun badge, that threw me off track. I can only guess that he might have been for a period with the MGC and then transferred, but that also would seem decidedly odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 May , 2013 Share Posted 30 May , 2013 Grumpy If it would help, I could email the higher res image to you - please PM me your email address. I understand that Orangelil, who is managing the Castleton Lantern Slide project, is intending to upload the higher-res images and link to a GWF topic. She has also arranged for a local gallery to professionally scan the images (the present versions are photos of the slides by Orangelil's father). The gloves could just be "props" for the studio photograph. Nigel Grumpys point about the leather gloves is that they were not authorised for other than officers and it would be rare for a SNCO to be in breach of that. I should be wary of that hoary old chestnut about soldiers utilising photographic props, for the most part it is a lot of old tosh, especially in respect of the swagger cane/stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 31 May , 2013 Share Posted 31 May , 2013 I have now received a high res. scan, thank you. This is a tantalising one! I cannot even be sure if the badge is worsted or gilding metal, but favour the later. It just might be MG .......... there were two varieties of script, one plain jane capitals, one curly. If this is MG it is clearly the curly one, and the M is convincing. The G bothers me, it is much more like a 9 ....... the curly G is indeed like a nine with a gap on the right of the top of the letter, but there appears to be no gap. My eyes never were much good. Unless the badge is a unit artefact or private purchase, I suppose it has to be MG, however unlikely. This one goes in the "I don't think we will ever know" file! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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