Sir Julian Byng

[mordac]

I?m looking for a well-researched book on Sir Julian Byng; particularly the period from May 1916 to June 1917 when he commanded the Canadian Corps. Any suggestions? Thanks.

[Marco]

My choice:

Williams, J. BYNG OF VIMY. 1983, 397 pages, 23x15 cm., Leo Cooper.

Regards,

Marco

[Martin B]

Marco is absolutely right. 'Byng Of Vimy' is an excellent account of the great mans life from his time as a junior office with the 10th Hussars, through to his years as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and Govenor General of Canada. No detail is missing.

[mordac]

Marco and Martin:

Thanks for your suggestion. I purchased Byng of Vimy this morning on amazon.ca ($36.97 CDN).

Also purchased Generals Die in Bed, by Charles Yale Harrison (ISBN: 0919676022). Harrison was an American who moved to Montreal. He joined the Royal Montreal Regiment and fought as a machine-gunner on the Western Front.

[mordac]

Hi Marco and Martin:

Finished reading Byng Of Vimy yesterday. You're right, it's a great read. It's well written, detailed, and has a good bibliography to use for further research.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Garth

[Marco]

Hello Garth,

Thanks for letting me know, I'm glad you liked it. As far as I recall this is the first time anyone has ever listened to me

Regards,

Marco

[jhill]

I, too, am an admirer of William's "Byng of Vimy". I find it a well written, extremely useful work with good sketch maps.

Alas! My nature abhors unanimity, so I must point out some issues which less well disposed readers might point out.

1. The description of the military events of the Vimy operation might be thought to rely too heavily on the standard published sources. One might have prefered a bit more use of staff papers, directives, and what not.

2. As most readers know, military biographers can often be categorized as "critical" or "non critical". Williams is clearly the latter, so those whose tastes lie elsewhere may not be totally comfortable. In particular, Williams generally takes the general's side against the politicians. He claims Gough got a raw deal, for example.

Enough of this. If you have only one book on Byng, this one should be it. You can get balance from other readings.

Pardon my opinion.

[armourersergeant]

Mordac, or anyone.

How did the book deal with the situation regarding Cambrai and the German counterattack as i have read that General Snow warned him and his third army Hq of the impending attack and he choose to ignore it. A subsequent inquiry headed by Generals Smuts found in favour of the General who claimed that it was the mens and lower grade officers fault. Smuts wasnt really in any fair situation as the last thing that was needed then was a committee seeing that the generals messed up again!!!

Arm.

[mordac]

Hi James:

1. I tend to agree however, the Vimy chapter was only was only 28 pages out of 366 pages in the book.

2. Biographers walk a very narrow line of objectivity when they write about a personality. Most writers can't walk that line; they either love or dislike the person their writing about. Jeffery Williams loved Julian Byng.

I had some trouble buying Williams take on the constitutional crisis of 1926. If the same situation were to occur in 2003 Canadians might very well jettison the monarchy and become a republic.

Arm - Byng never seems to have criticized a fellow officer in public and rarely in private. However, after the German offensive of 1917 he made sure Snow and Wollcombe were sent home to England and had Pulteney demoted to a line officer.

Garth

[armourersergeant]

Does the book qualify wether he blamed these men for the counterattck results, if so thats a bit unfair considering Snow certainly gave him info on the attack and asked for reinforcements which he did not get?

Arm.

[jhill]

armourer,

I hope you get more informed comments on Cambrai than I can offer, but as far as the Williams book goes, the author generally tries to put forward the basic narrative as he sees them, while skirting away from issues of controversy. I summarize his take roughly like this:

1. At Cambrai, the Third Army received the German counterattack on its right flank while still attempting (at Haig's insistence) to advance on its left.

2. Third Army was well aware of the impending counterattack, and specifically warned all units. The particular point of attack was misjudged, but the force there was judged adequate and reserves were positioned to cover such an eventuality.

3. The rapidity of the German advance was due not to faulty British dispositions, but rather to the inability of the forward units to provide enough resistance to slow it up initially. This inability was considered a result of inadequate training and preparation of the subsidiary units.

If you accept this framework, the issue resolves to one of determining which level of command bore the bulk of the responisility for training and preparing their troops for battle. Our author does not really go there. What you really need is a speciallized study on training methods and doctrine in Third Army and its Corps and Divisions during the summer and fall of 1917. The book in question is not that study.

Perhaps one of our more erudite members can suggest some, if they exist :_)

[armourersergeant]

In response James(thanks by the way for the info)to the points raised.

1.)...This is probably true.

2.)...Snow requested reinforcements and gave 3rd army the intell of the impending attack, he recieved no response. If Byng had believed his troops to be in a reasonable position and with adequate numbers and they still failed then he should accept responsibilty for that.

3.)Were the men meeting the counterattack fresh troops or the tired men who had just faught a battle? This i do not know.

In conclusion i would submit that the fact that Snow (and i concentrate on him as i am doing some research on him) was sent home shortly after this and was not allowed to attend the inquiry regarding the battle held by Smuts after the event shows me that Byng and possibly Haig were making every attempt to cover their tracks. 3rd ypres was still a fresh wound for the commander in chief and lloyd-George was gunning for him. There was uproar in England for this disaster at Cambrai and heads had to roll. It was never going to be Haig and Byng!!!!!

Arm.

Ps... I too think that whilst Goughs generalship is open to some real criticism he bears the guilt of many of the generals who get away with quiet literally murder.

[armourersergeant]

As an add to this old thread i can say that according to Snows letters home to his wife he states that his pelvic injury was worse( he fell from his horse in 1914) and he was not giving the best he could. He refers to a talk with Byng who states that Byng says that he would prefer to have him with one leg than many with two, thus i would assume that Snow believed or had been advised that he might loose his leg. He also states that this is hampering him doing his job properley as he can not get around as he should.

IMO i believe that he was tired, his leg/pelvis was getting worse and he had been on the front since 1914. Cambria had been hard for him and some of the mess from that was bound to rub off on him. but it would appear that Byng was not for getting rid unless these above words were just kind words for show. I have not read all the letters but i get the impression that he was at the end of the road mentally and physically.

He was lucky in that he could ask to be sent home, many could not.

If anyone has proof or sources that he was sent home if they could please post them as i was of the opinion that this was the case but i cant see he would lie to his wife. Mind the letters may have been tampered with after the event to protect his reputation.

Arm.