Guest fantictrials Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 Hi there, I'm new to this forum and was hoping that someone might be able to help with information about an SMLE III* that I am about to buy. It is marked as follows; Crown G.R B 1942 SHT.L.E III* There appears to be no makers mark? Just a B. The 42 looks to be stamped more heavily so I'm not sure if this was re-dated? thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 "B" indicates BSA - Birmingham Small Arms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 Its a BSA "Dispersal" rifle. Up until 1940, BSA made normal high-quality No1 MkIII* on limited military contracts, marked with the usual Crown and BSA&Co, as well as identical rifles just marked "BSA&Co" for commercial sale and export. With the invasion scare, the Ministry of Supply ordered BSA to make rifles out of whatever parts it could get together. Hence the rifles were made of mixtures of commercial and military parts, mixed walnut and beech wood (or all-beech), later on No4 butts and firing pin/cocking pieces. A second wave of production in 1945 even used recycled and re-dated receivers. About the same time the emergency rifle production was started, BSA was ordered to disperse its many Birmingham factories away from the bomb-target central area, and also to increase war production by diluting experienced staff with war staff. BSA was a huge engineering group, and this "Dispersal" programme led to 70 seperate factories being set up, moved and/or expanded. Rifle production involved several of these factories (both No1s and No4s), and this type of "all available parts" No1 has become known as a "Dispersal rifle". Technically, even the No4s were Dispersals, as well as motorbikes, bicycles, aircraft parts, machine guns and heavy weaponry... BSA marked these rifles with just the first "B" of BSA&Co. Presumably this was to dissociate the company from these slightly less-than top quality peacetime rifles! Post some photos of the rifle. We'll tell you how many of the remaining features are Dispersal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 In the interim: here are a selection of BSA cyphers from pre-war up Dispersal rifles 1905 MkI*** (ER) 1907 MkIII (first year of MkIII production) 1918 MkIII* (typical late war production) Late inter-war production WWII dispersal rifles (inc the latest BSA MkIII have seen -- 1944) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fantictrials Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 Thanks for the information put forward! It makes fascinating reading! I pickup the rifle on Tuesday so will take some pictures and post them for all to see. I think the furniture might be made from different types of wood, which I initially thought was wrong, but the info above indicates that this might be original! Thanks again! Will be back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Francesco Biondi Posted 21 May , 2013 Share Posted 21 May , 2013 Hi all, I am the proud owner of a N°1 mk III Enfield SMLE made by BSA in 1912. On the buttstock marking disc I can read:188HRA at the top and 73 at the bottom. The broad arrow on the buttstock seems to be flanked by a I on the left and a G or C on the right. Could someone help me to understand what do these markings mean? thanks, Francesco Biondi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 May , 2013 Share Posted 21 May , 2013 Hi all, I am the proud owner of a N°1 mk III Enfield SMLE made by BSA in 1912. On the buttstock marking disc I can read:188HRA at the top and 73 at the bottom. The broad arrow on the buttstock seems to be flanked by a I on the left and a G or C on the right. Could someone help me to understand what do these markings mean? thanks, Francesco Biondi Hi Francesco, welcome to the forum! I am not sure about the unit disc (others may have a better idea) but the buttstock stamping sounds very like an Indian Government stamp. Is there perhaps also a letter above or below the arrow? There are several variations of this style of stamping. The letters are at 9, 12 and 3 o'clock with the arrow in the center, I I G is an early stamp, I I S also appears on WWI vintage rifles. Later the position of the letters swithched to 9, 6 and 3 o'clock and I A S becomes very common, even later S A I on post WWII Indian rifles T D E (W) at 9, 12, 3, 6 around an arrow is common. Any chance of posting a picture of your rifle? are there any other signs of Indian ownership (transverse screw throught the forend and or metal backstrap on the foreend / FR stamp under the safety, India version of foresight protector etc) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 22 May , 2013 Share Posted 22 May , 2013 I've just looked at my Mk III, the main stamping is identical to the 1918 one shown above with the little 6 pointed star, but it is dated 1928. There is no brass disc on the butt, is this unusual? There is nothing to suggest that the butt is a replacement as all the furniture is matching. Diluted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 22 May , 2013 Share Posted 22 May , 2013 Butt discs were dropped along with several other manufacturing shortcuts during the course of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 May , 2013 Share Posted 22 May , 2013 A 1928 dated BSA is a relatively rare beast...only@100,000 were made in total by BSA in the 20s and 30s (compared to @380,000 in 1918 alone) I suspect the serial number is probably L prefixed? As Stoppage Drill indicated, use of marker discs was discontinued @1915/6 (although it appears to have been restarted in the inter-war period in some cases). Sometimes the disc was fitted but unmarked, sometimes the disc was simply omitted (leaving the hole) and, as in your case, many later production butt-stocks were produced without the disc inletting. So no, it is not unusual at all for the disc to be absent in any rifle dated after 1916. Out of interest - is the receiver machined for the magazine cut-off or not? It understand it is marked MkIII* so would not have had a cut-off originally but I am interested if the receiver was machined for it or not. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Francesco Biondi Posted 27 May , 2013 Share Posted 27 May , 2013 Dear Chris, thank you for your reply. The letter on the right of the broad arrow is definitely a "G",so you are right about the attribution to the India Government. No other marking is visible. I shall post images of my Enfield rifle(s)as soon as I can find a friend capable to do that. I wish you a nice week. Francesco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 3 June , 2013 Share Posted 3 June , 2013 Yes the serial number is L5323, I thought it was perhaps unusual as in 1928 making infantry rifles was way down the list of priorities for the UK government. It is however a really nice example. It does not seem to be machined for a Mag cut off though. Diluted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted 25 February , 2014 Share Posted 25 February , 2014 Hi, I am new to the site and have found it really interesting. I have a question about my 1916 Lee Enfield SMLE Mk III. I have bought it from a reputable dealer but wonder why it has a magazine guard when all the websites say it was dispensed with in 1915. Can anyone help? Regards, Ian Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 25 February , 2014 Share Posted 25 February , 2014 By "magazine guard" I assume you mean the swing out magazine cut-off? Although the Mark III* was officially introduced in late 1915 it was not implemented by all makers immediately. They used parts on hand for some time. London Small Arms continued to make the Mark III for most of the war. Who made your rifle? The maker can be found on the wrist below the bolt handle. Close up pictures of the markings on both sides of the wrist would be a great help in providing further information. i have to say that with the exception of our own Thunderbox and one or two others I have known for years I have little faith in "reputable" dealers, especially those selling deactivated weapons. Also, remember that post war many rifles were put back to Mark III status and had the cut-off added if the slot was present on the action. Regards Tonye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted 26 February , 2014 Share Posted 26 February , 2014 Thanks Tonye, I am having trouble uploading pictures but the markings are; BSA & Co (Birmingham Small Arms)1916 SHT LE Mk III Is there a way of finding about the history of a specific rifle? The serial no is 61069. It was previously owned by a retired Lt Col JLJ Levine who served for 30 years in the armed forces who I am thinking of contacting for more information. It has the number 79 on the end of the muzzle. On top of the rifle just before the muzzle it has; SA 52 F Embossed in the wooden stock is also S/A. Hope you can shed some light. Regards, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 27 February , 2014 Share Posted 27 February , 2014 You have a Mark III, not a Mark III*. The manufacturing simplifications apply only to the III*, so a cut-off is completely correct for a Mark III, and as I said, the Mark III continued to be made for some time after the formal introduction of the III* in Lists of Changes. There is no way of telling the history of any particular rifle unfortunately. I suspect all the previous owner will be able to tell you is where he bought it. The nose cap has been replaced as it should have the serial number on it. I will leave it to Chris (4th Gordons) or Thunderbox to tell you more about the markings. Regards Tonye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted 27 February , 2014 Share Posted 27 February , 2014 Thank you. Much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 February , 2014 Share Posted 27 February , 2014 S A is (somewhat confusingly) usually an Indian mark, there are several version of it but it is common to see stamped on the butt of rifles both produced in Indian and that have seen Indian service. About the earliest rifles I have seen it on as an "original" mark (insofar as I can tell) are 1918 Ishapores (prior to that they have IIG or IIS) but some version of IAS or SIA in a circle around a broad arrow becomes almost universal from @1918 forward until the final production examples in the late 80s! Versions of SA [number] [letter] are also common as Indian inspection marks. So it would seem likely that the rifle saw service in India at some point. I have seen Indian rifles with large font (much larger than would be possible with a longer serial number) numbers (possibly rack numbers) stamped on the bayonet boss on Indian rifles too. Does the rifle have a screw running transversely through the fore-end? This too is a common "tell" for rifles that were in post WWI Indian service but is not universal. I will try and dig out some pictures of the Indian style markings. Chris Edited to add pics: earlier Indian S^A stamp Later (1976!) Indian S^A stamp Indian inspection stamp on 1918 BSA Indian FTR stamp on 1918 BSA Have you removed the upper handguard (held in place by spring clips) to seewhat stampings are visible on the Barrel there? they are often illuminating at very least there is probably a serial number but there are likely to be other inspection stamps. Rifles are typically serial numbered in a number of places. If the magazine is numbered to the rifle that too is an indication of Indian use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted 16 March , 2014 Share Posted 16 March , 2014 Thank you. Here are clearer pics as requested. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 16 March , 2014 Share Posted 16 March , 2014 You have a Mark III, not a Mark III*. The manufacturing simplifications apply only to the III*, so a cut-off is completely correct for a Mark III, and as I said, the Mark III continued to be made for some time after the formal introduction of the III* in Lists of Changes. There is no way of telling the history of any particular rifle unfortunately. I suspect all the previous owner will be able to tell you is where he bought it. The nose cap has been replaced as it should have the serial number on it. I will leave it to Chris (4th Gordons) or Thunderbox to tell you more about the markings. Regards Tonye Actually Tony, the "manufacturing simplifications" applied to the "future manufacture" of the MkIII, they only also applied to the MkIII* as it's the same as the MkIII but without the cutoff or slot. Carefully read the LoC of 1916 which is in 2 parts, note the last paragraph especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 March , 2014 Share Posted 17 March , 2014 Thanks, but I was fully aware of that and have made the same point myself to other people. I phrased my reply badly. What I meant was that modification (i.e. the lack of a cut-off) applied only to the Mark III*. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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