David Porter Posted 17 May , 2013 Share Posted 17 May , 2013 In my research into T.F. Artillery renumbering I discovered blocks of six figure numbers allocated to individually numbered Howitzer batteries which I was under the impression were just regular. The majority were in the 500 series of Howitzer batteries formed in 1916. The conclusion I came to was that some must have been given T.F. affiliation. Finally, last weekend, I managed to look up what I thought relevant Army Council Instructions that were mentioned in documents found within Service Records. This is what I uncovered: ACI 1298 of 1916, dated June 29, 1916, shows that 41 Howitzer batteries were formed, 12 of them at T.F. Artillery Training Schools (3rd Line Units). ACI 1717 of 1916, dated September 4, 1916, gives the titles of the raised batteries in the T.F. as 529 to 540 along with the offices dealing their administration. This means that numbers 500 to 528 were allocated to those batteries raised at the listed regular reserve brigades. ACI 2063 of 1916, dated November 1, 1916 shows that some establishments had difficulty in raising their batteries and 2nd Line T.F. batteries were withdrawn from their Divisions to fill the gaps in both regular and T.F line up. It can be seen that these too retain T.F. affiliation along with the 4 newly raised Home Service replacements, namely 541 to 544. The 6 regular batteries were replaced by 545 to 550. It is also interesting to note that certain batteries had already proceeded overseas. Unfortunately, most of this numbering quickly disappeared as the batteries joined other brigade formations. By February 1917 most had been broken up and divided between other brigades in their group. It is also worth pointing out that 504 Bty & 505 Bty were subsequently armed with 6 x 18pdr each under ACI 2403 of 1916, dated December 22, 1916, and grouped with 465 Bty & 466 Bty at Bordon in 65th Army Brigade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 17 May , 2013 Share Posted 17 May , 2013 very interesting.. not least as a great uncle was with 504th Bty/65th Army Bde 1917-18. thanks for sharing that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 17 May , 2013 Share Posted 17 May , 2013 David I have a mention of 500 Battery with respect to the 56th Division. When the divisions artillery was formed in May 1916 the core of the RFA brigades was drawn from the pre-war London TF Brigades: 1/1 became 280 Bde 1/2 became 281 Bde 1/3 became 282 Bde 1/4 became 283 Bde . Initially there was a lot of movement of batteries and sections in and out of these new brigades. The 283 was broken up on 5 Nov 1916 and 282 became an Army Brigade on 20 Jan 1917. My notes show the 1 section of 500 (Howitzer) Bty joined 280 Bde and 1 section 500 (Howitzer) Bty joined 281 on 11 Nov 1916 from 282 Bde. Interestingly 'D' Batteries of 280 and 281 are only stated as being made up to 6 guns batteries on 25 Jan 1917 and 23 Jan 1917 respectively. The implication of this is the 500 Battery was part of 282 Brigade from its formation on 6 May 1916. However it interesting to note that 1/4 London Brigade was equiped with howitzers. Is it possible to confirm my assumptions about 500 Bty? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 17 May , 2013 Admin Share Posted 17 May , 2013 Not sure if this helps but just come across this man Arthur Joseph Maw RFA 140645 who joined at No 1 Depot Newcastle in April 1916, posted to 1a Res Bde, then 500 How Bty in July 1916, sent to France in October 1916. His Active Service Form, below, shows that this became 282 (London) Bde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 Bob and Russ, If you follow the lists in the ACIs you will see that 500 Bty was indeed raised at 1A Reserve Bde as was 501 Bty, but 502 Bty could only be raised by 2nd line T.F...The Active Service Form is a typical example and shows that regular batteries joined T.F. Brigades (and vice versa). In this case 500 (How.) battery joined 282 Bde as "A" battery on or before December 4, 1916 but by January 28, 1917 had been broken up between 280 Bde and 281 Bde as stated above. The mistake is to assume 500 (How.) battery was with 282 Bde from its formation which is easy to make. Also of interest is that Arthur Maw retained his regular number throughout despite joining a T.F. brigade prior to renumbering. This would indicate that they retained their regular status in whatever formation they found themselves (just like the T.F. examples above). This must be why he wasn't given a number in the 935001-940000 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 18 May , 2013 Share Posted 18 May , 2013 as far as I can see only 504th, 505th (both 65th Army Bde) and 527th Bty retained their original numbers by wars end, amongst units in France, at least. 65th Army Bde is quite interesting as seems to have had a 'regular' feel to it, and I get the feeling with more than its fair share of prewar regular and wartime officers commissioned from Woolwich.. although the adjutant was prewar a regular BQMS... . It would be interesting to know if the other 'regular' series 500 batteries also managed a high proportion of regular officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 Battiscombe, you can add 524th Bty to those retaining its original number. The rest are very shortlived and most were split up. I've complied a very messy list: 500 overseas 22-Oct-16 became A (H)/282 broken up and divided between D (H)/280 and D (H)/281 by 28-01-17 501 overseas 10-Nov-16 became C (H)/60 502 = 502nd (2/1st Monmouth) How. Bty. RFA, history unknown 503 became D (H)/76 A 504 overseas 2-May-17 became 504/65 A 505 overseas 2-May-17 became 505/65 A 506 became C (H)/38 507 overseas 6-Nov-16 became D (H)/113 508 overseas 5-Nov-16 became D (H)/51 became D (H)/52 A on 08-01-17 509 overseas 3-Oct-16 became 509/14 A RHA 510 disbanded in 1916 511 disbanded in 1916 512 became C (H)/232 broken up and divided between D (H)/230 and D (H)/231 on 02-01-17 513 overseas 6-Nov-16 became C (H)/64 broken up and divided between D (H)/62 and D (H)/63 on 07-01-17 514 overseas 5-Nov-16 became C (H)/150 became D (H)/150 on 03-01-17 515 overseas 6-Nov-16 became C (H)/86 broken up and divided between D (H)/87 and D (H)/88 on 23-01-17 516 overseas 2-Oct-16 became C (H)/175 broken up and divided between D (H)/152 and D (H)/160 on 24-11-16 517 overseas 10-Nov-16 posted to and became D (H)/155 on 25-01-17 518 became B (H)/247 broken up and divided between D (H)/245 and D (H)/246 on 08-01-17 519 became A (H)/301 disbanded in 1917 520 became C (H)/308 some joined D (H)/136 A Bde bringing it up to six guns by 17-02-17 521 became D (H)/34 disbanded in 1917 522 overseas 2-Oct-16 became C (H)/108 broken up and divided between D (H)/106 and D (H)/107 on 27-01-17 523 became C (H)/236 disbanded in 1917 524 overseas 15-Oct-16 became 524/215 left for Mespot 15-10-16 525 overseas 10-Nov-16 became C (H)/315 broken up on 18-11-16 and used to bring other batteries up to six guns 526 overseas 5-Oct-16 became C (H)/15 broken up and divided between D (H)/15 and 37 (H)/28 on 22-01-17 527 arrived in Mespot May 1917 and joined 15th Division 528 overseas 15-Oct-16 became C (H)/158 broken up and divided between D (H)/157 and D (H)/159 on 09-01-17 529 overseas 2-Oct-16 became C (H)/172 broken up and divided between D (H)/113 A and D (H)/77 A on 22-02-17 530 overseas 2-Oct-16 became C (H)/276 broken up and divided between D (H)/275 and D (H)/276 on 18-01-17 531 overseas 22-Oct-16 became C (H)/242 broken up and divided between D (H)/240 and D (H)/241 on 16-01-17 532 overseas 10-Nov-16 became 532 (H)/72 broken up and divided between D (H)/70 and D (H)/71 on 16-01-17 533 overseas 4-Oct-16 became A (H)/96 broken up and divided between D (H)/94 and D (H)/95 on 13-01-17 534 overseas 8-Nov-16 became A (H)/23 renamed D (H)/23 A on 23rd becoming an Army Brigade 24-01-17 535 overseas 8-Nov-16 became C (H)/260 broken up and divided between D (H)/255 and D (H)/256 on 25-01-17 536 overseas 5-Oct-16 became C (H)/155 broken up and divided between D (H)/161 and D (H)/168 on 20-01-17 537 overseas 12-Mar-17 became C 537(H)/332 renamed D (H)/332 17-03-17, then C (H)/332 on 23-06-17, then D (H)/147 A 538 overseas 4-Mar-17 became D 538(H)/332 broken up and divided between D (H)/332 and D (H)/331 on 17-03-17 539 overseas 13-Mar-17 became C (H)/298 broken up and divided between D (H)/211 and D (H)/296 on 16-06-17 540 overseas 13-Mar-17 became D (H)/298 Any additions or corrections are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 18 May , 2013 Share Posted 18 May , 2013 David & Russ Why would a Howitzer Battery become A/282 surely it would be D/282 unless it joined without any guns? Also with respect to Arthur Maw;s numbering issue. My Grandfather was a Derby scheme man who was called up to Woolwich in September 1916 and was then posted to D/281. His number was 169149 which he retained throughout the war. Bob Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 19 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Bob, Becoming A/282 is down to the peculiar reorganizing the War Office did to bring batteries up to six guns and to produce Army Brigades. The original A/282 was broken up and divided between B/282 and C/282 Btys - see http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/warpath/divs/56_div.htm#3lond1 Your grandfather's regular number remained unchanged as he would have joined D/281 after the T.F. renumbering process. If he had joined prior to December 31, 1916 he would have been renumbered as his documents would have been transferred to a T.F. Record Office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfegga Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 In the war diary for 175 brigade RFA of October the 7th 1916 it mentions that 516th Heavy Brigade RFA joined 175 and became part of C/175. Never found out much about them but have a note saying they were based in Ewshot Hampshire? Would this be the same 516th 2/2 Renfrew from the above list? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 19 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Thank you Dave, that is a distinct possibility and they got the name wrong. Ewshott was certainly one of the places these batteries gathered prior to going overseas. Also a couple of dates I have suggest 516 Bty went overseas in early October 1916. I see that C/175 was broken up on November 24, 1916 so I'll have a look to see if I can find batches of T.F. numbers in D/152 and D/160. EDIT: We do have casualties in both batteries within the range 640357 to 640473 from Greenock & Port Glasgow area, so looking good. RANKIN J 640382 152ND BDE 25/04/1917 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY GREENWOOD S 640389 D BTY 152ND BDE 04/09/1918 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY NICHOLSON W 640436 D BTY 152ND BDE 23/10/1917 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY WATSON RJ 640447 D BTY 152ND BDE 11/04/1918 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY SINCLAIR WL 640473 D BTY 152ND BDE 25/05/1918 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY HANSON JM 640357 D BTY 160TH BDE 25/08/1918 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY MACKENZIE A 640368 D BY, 160TH BDE 02/10/1917 ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 19 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Pretty much conclusive proof that 516 (How.) Bty went to 34th Division. The Pension Record for 640462 David George Hughes has this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertBr Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 David Your reply about numbering implies that a man was not allocated a number before he joined his brigade! His papers show he was mobilsed on 6/9/16, posted ro Res Bde (Woolwich) 22/9/16, and posted to BEF 6/3/17. Surely he was alloacted a number long before 31/12/16. Even then his number would be in a different range. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfegga Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 David Thanks for that. Fills in a few more gaps. Might explain these casualties from Scotland. Alexander Edminstone McMurdo 663058 10/12/17 from Glasgow David Patterson 133586 D/175 7/1/18 from Falkland Fife James Goodman 646209 A/175 10/9/18 from Dundee Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 20 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2013 Bob, You are quite correct about your grandfather who was given a regular number following a sequence allocated to Woolwich which was probably handed out soon after joining there. What I implied above refers to transfers into the T.F before the end of 1916 where each brigade had their own numbering sequence and this needed to be standardised. There are plenty of examples of RFA men trained as regulars (usually called up earlier than Sept. 1916) who completed training before the end of 1916 and were transferred to the T.F. Lots of men in the regular 138xxx and 139xxx sequence went to 62nd Divisional Artillery Column. They were initially given a 5 figure number (13xxx) then, from January 1917 when T.F. renumbering kicked in, they were given a unique 6 figure number in the late 796xxx or early 797xxx sequence. That is 3 numbers within a year and all RFA. Your grandfather did not have to go through this as he didn't join the T.F. and retained his unique regular number beyond the cut-off date. This was the whole idea of the T.F. renumbering.- to give everyone a unique number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 20 May , 2013 Admin Share Posted 20 May , 2013 David I have recently been going through the records of RFA men with 138xxx numbers, and I had noticed from their MICs that quite a few were re-numbered with RFA TF 796xxx numbers. I was wondering why that was the case, so this thread has explained that, thanks. My interest lies in these 138xxx RFA men being transferred to infantry regiments, so I hadn't given these RFA transfers much thought. Nevertheless, I am keen to discover as many service/pension records of 138xxx (or ex 138xxx) RFA men as I can so I have a complete set of attestation/mobilised/call-up dates over the whole 138xxx number range. I thought I had them all but I've noticed I didn't find any RFA records for men with 138xxx numbers being later transferred to RFA TF brigades. Given that you mention that these men were given a 13xxx 5-digit number initially, then I assume that this information may have come from service/pension records. If so, any chance please you could let me know which men/records show this 138xxx, 13xxx and 796xxx sequence. Thanks in advance Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 20 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2013 Russ, Your wish is my command. Unfortunately most are 139xxx, and yes, you will only get the 5 figure number from the service record Reginald Harris 796896 138964 13163 Sam Richards 796962 138965 13230 John R. Morris 796904 138971 13171 Frederick Merry 796903 138975 13170 George H Forman 796818 138978 13084 William T Parker 796944 138979 13212 William H Mann 796905 138986 13172 Frederick Browning 796768 138987 13032 Arthur S Faithfull 796820 138989 13086 Douglas T Bush 796751 138992 13015 Thomas Rogers 796961 138993 13229 Walter Howick 796848 138994 13115 Edward R Adams 796737 138995 13001 Albert Aslett 796738 138998 13002 Arthur Symons 796985 139000 13253 William E Russell 796959 139004 13227 Sidney Morris 796902 139011 13169 Thomas W Gee 796831 139012 13097 Ernest Ansley 796739 139015 13003 David J Maundrell 796901 139026 13168 Ernest Colclough 796782 139030 13046 William T Oakey 796926 139032 13193 Sidney R Pollard 796937 139034 13205 Richard Rundle 796960 139040 13228 Thomas R Reed 796958 139041 13226 Edwin A Mountford 796900 139059 13167 Edward F Stroud 796984 139063 13252 Albertos Toms 797005 139071 13273 Henry J Hoskin 796845 139072 13112 Thomas W Measey 796892 139073 13159 Reuben Smith 796978 139075 13246 Richard Smith 796977 139076 13245 Frederick J Roberts 796954 139078 13222 Leonard Turner 797004 139085 13272 Albert Gifford 796833 139088 13099 William J Martin 796893 139092 13160 Leonard Brewer 796752 139093 13016 Adrian B Jephcott 796867 139094 13134 Arthur Edwards 797026 139095 ????? James W Whitaker 797026 139096 13296 Edwin John Down 796793 139098 13059 Bert Edwards 796808 139099 13074 Thomas F Clack 796774 139102 13038 John Ford 796815 139105 13081 Herbert L Plummer 796947 139107 13215 Alfred E Rayner 796967 139122 13235 Percy M Manning 796908 139134 13175 Charles Wain 797024 139136 13294 Ernest Wakeham 797042 139139 13313 Albert J Hayward 796842 139140 13109 William Shepherd 796991 139141 13259 Henry Brazier 796756 139142 13020 John C Methven 796898 139144 13165 Henry J Beech 796757 139145 13021 Albert E Fenton 796814 139147 13080 Thomas O Watson 797043 139149 13314 Albert G Bason 796762 139150 13026 Robert C Stone 796993 139154 13261 Ernest R Sears 796992 139155 13260 Ernest Elliss 796807 139157 13073 Douglas Waldron 797025 139158 13295 James G Crockett 796775 139164 13039 Barrey C Coombes 796777 139169 13041 William Garland 796838 139180 13105 George R Holdaway 796841 139182 13108 Ernest E Cannock 796790 139193 13055 Alfred S Bawn 796760 139194 13024 Arthur Lane 796887 139195 13154 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 20 May , 2013 Admin Share Posted 20 May , 2013 David Many thanks - that's a very impressive list - so thanks for sharing. Don't know how I could have been missed so many records. I had all but 2 of the 138xxx men on your list from MICs. I'll go hunting for these records although I'm sure using Ancestry will make it a challenge - they didn't come up previously when I did a wildcard number and regiment/corps search. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 21 May , 2013 Admin Share Posted 21 May , 2013 David With reference to the top 14 men on your list with 138xxx numbers, try as I might I just can't seem to get any hits searching Ancestry either on their Service or Pension records. I've been searching mainly on name only just in case any of the number and/or corp details have been mis-transcribed. Do you re-call whether you got these men's records from Ancestry or from some other source? I have found MICs for all these 14 men except John R. Morris (796904, 138971, 13171), so perhaps he didn't serve overseas unless you know different Any pointers? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 21 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2013 RussT, Keep trying as I must have obtained most of them from Ancestry. John Richard Morris has 18 pages in the Pension Records under the number 796904. This is another aspect to consider - Service Records are mostly indexed by entry number, Pension Records are mostly indexed by discharge number. You can also add Walter Neville (138991, 13189 & 796922) to your list. If you check 796736 through to 797048 the surnames are alphabetical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 22 May , 2013 Admin Share Posted 22 May , 2013 David OK - thanks - I'll keep trying. First success - now found the penison record of John Richard Morris (incorrectly indexed on Ancestry under number 796804) - so that's a start. Confirms he didn't serve overseas which explains why I couldn't find a MIC for him. I'll let you know how I get on with the others. Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 22 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2013 Thanks Russ, but the last few posts have strayed off topic so please send a PM if you have more to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt-Sags Posted 26 June , 2013 Share Posted 26 June , 2013 Hello, I came across this post whilst searching for anything on the 505/65 RFA and was wondering if anybody could help. My great x 2 Grandfather was posted to this Brigade on the 30th of March 1918. He was wounded on the 23rd of May suffering from a gunshot wound to the left leg, neck and hand. I am trying to find out where they on this day and also the 1/2 Low FA as his was sent there the next day. I have his service records but they only show that his was 'In the Field'. Gunner Ernest Fred Samuels No. 102657 RFA Thanks again Lee Ernest Fred Samuels No. 102657 RFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 27 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2013 Lee, The only way to determine the actual location of 505th Battery is to consult the War Diary of 65th Army Field Artillery Brigade. The National Archives at Kew give the reference needed as WO 95/455 65 Army Field Artillery Brigade 1917 May - 1919 Aug. One big clue though is that he went to 1/2nd Lowland Field Ambulance which was in 52nd Division and their movements are here - http://www.1914-1918.net/52div.htm David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt-Sags Posted 27 June , 2013 Share Posted 27 June , 2013 David, Thank you I had looked on LLT but wasn't sure if I was looking at the correct division with regards to the Lowland FA so thanks for that link and also the reference No. at Kew. I have a few things now to check out at Kew so just need to organise a day to nip up there. Thanks again Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now