Help wanted - Just starting out

[Twonk1972]

Hi all, just been reading some of the threads on here and i have to say some of you guys are mighty switched on to all this. I am just starting out and wondered if you could point me in the right direction on some things.

Anyway i shall get to my point.....

I was given as a child my Great uncles medals, cap badge, tunic button and a couple of badges that look to be some sort of release from service for wounds received badge (numbered). He served in the 2nd Battalion Royal Scottish Fusiliers according to one of his medals. Cpl C.Duffield it has a number on and i presume this is his Service number 8237. It is a bronze 1914 Star and has Aug to Nov on the front. It also has a tiny silver Rossette stitched into the ribbon at the top. I also have a pin that is in the shape of a drum and a cap badge with what looks to be a harp on it. His tunic button has a thistle and a wreath on. I also have a brass tin that has Christmas 1914 written on the front of it with a womans head embossed on the centre with what looks like M M either side of her? Photos attached.

I am going to get them all mounted in a frame and pass them on to my own children in time. Before i do this i wanted to try and get some background on his Regiment, actions etc and also perhaps look to getting hold of a service record if one exists. Where is the best place to look for all this info? Is there one site in particular that i can go to for a definate answer without all the faffing about so to speak?

I had two other relatives that were killed at Ypres and the Somme but have nothing of theirs unfortunately so i wanted to find out more about my Great Uncle so we had at least some record of the families efforts in the Great War.

Also does anyone have any idea as to what the various badges and pins actually correspond too? I.e the Drum pin and Rossette on the medal ribbon and loyal service/services rendered badge? Did everyone get these or are they specific for some reason?

I know you wont have all the answers but if you could point me in the right direction it would be a great start.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Many thanks

Steve

[battiscombe]

that sounds right : Corporal Charles Duffield [8237] 2nd Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers, later in a Training Reserve Battalion with a new number L/12052 - probably after being wounded.. and his Silver War Badge [396847] provided when discharged when no longer able to serve from wounds/sickness. the records for that show he was discharged as a Serjeant, now numbered 52975 on 1/6/1918 aged 29. enlisted 29/9/1904. doing the math that suggested he enlisted quite young ,, could have been a drummer once upon a time

[Twonk1972]

Wow that is amazing! How the heck do you find that sort of info out? Really impressive thank you.

So i guess the badge that has the number 396847 was issued when he had to return from active duty to show he wasnt an objector etc?

Any idea what the drum badge may mean and i guess the cap badge was just the regimental cap badge? Almost kind of points to him being some sort of musician but i was never aware of my great aunt saying he was, she just used to say he was wounded and didnt talk about it.

Thanks

Steve

[CGM]

Welcome to the forum, Steve.

You can read about the Silver War Badge HERE.

CGM

[Twonk1972]

Thanks guys much appreciated! Seems he enlisted at 15, probably as a drummer or something then thus the drummer badge. I guess they didnt have much use for drums though in 1914 and he swapped it for a rifle and ended up getting wounded. If he has the 1914 Aug-Nov Star with the silver rossette attached does that mean he would be classed as one of the Old Contemptibles? I guess if he was discharged in 1918 he would of been? Amazing to think that, he was such a nice old fella by all accounts and always cheerful but just never talked about his experiences in the War. Men like him and all the others that served are an inspiration, just as much now as what they were back then.

Just want to put across to my own young children the sacrifices these men made to give them some idea of what these brave men went through and its always easier if you can relate it to a member of your own family etc.

Thanks for all your info, its excellent and informative and very addictive this site. Just reading through it all is amazing.

Any other info people may have about the badges etc will be greatly received.

[Black Watch]

The cap badge looks Irish or possibly some sort of musicians badge but I don't recognise it. It isn't Royal Scots Fusiliers though.

[Graham Stewart]

Cap badge is a civilian band badge, which was probably worn after his Discharge from the Army - so with his previous skill as a drummer he may have joined a local civvy band. As members have already pointed out he was a pre-war Regular, but he may have also served with other RSF Bn's during the War and the RSF Medal Rolls should be able to give you any other RSF battalions served with.

The odd one out is his service with the Training Reserve as their numbers always begin TR/?/12052 and not 'L/' - the /?/ being the Regimental District number, but I have none of my records here with me to check which number it should be. He would have probably been sent here to recuperate and retrain after wounding, with the prospect of being returned to the front.

[SteveE]

The odd one out is his service with the Training Reserve as their numbers always begin TR/?/12052 and not 'L/' - the /?/ being the Regimental District number

Looking at the MIC the number is actually 2/12052 (so TR/2/12052), the "2" indicating No.2 Regimental District (Hamilton Record Office) and which covered the Royal Scots, Royal Scots Fusiliers, Scottish Rifles, Highland Light Infantry and King's Own Scottish Borderers.

Steve

[Twonk1972]

Thanks all much appreciated. He did enlist in 1904 so was a pre war regular but also must have served throughout the actual war as he has a 1914 Star with the Aug Nov in the centre and a little silver Rossette sewn on the ribbon. I read somewhere that you were only allowed to wear these if you were in France between aug nov and the Rossette signifies you were either at the front or at the least within range of the big guns. Also if he received a SWB and was discharged in June 1918 then it seems somewhere between Oct 1914 when I believe the RSF arrived in Belgium and 1918 that he was wounded and sent to a training regiment and eventually discharged. Is there a way from the SWB number that I can trace a reason for his discharge? Is there somewhere I can go to look this up?

I didn't even realise your service number could change? I thought once you were issued with it that you had it for army life? But it must have changed if it says 8237 on his medal but something different on discharge.

At least I can discount the harp badge now, always thought it didn't quite fit with everything else and didnt look military. Looks like that was something he did when he returned.

[Bombadier]

Yes, the 1914 star with the bar on the ribbon means he was an Old Contemptible . The rosette was to be worn on the ribbon when only the ribbon was worn to show the wearer was entitled to the bar. Where they were worn was another matter ! My grandfather had one of his (2 were issued) mounted in the centre of a rosette made from 1914 medal ribbon. My grandmother wore it at reunions .

Nigel

[Twonk1972]

Hi Nigel, thanks that's very interesting that. Amazing when you start looking into these things that sometimes the smallest detail can mean so much. I have often wondered what it signified and it's only since I have got older and started looking into everything that you start to see what it all means.

I guess these guys were as proud as proud can be really but always understating it as was the British way at the time.

Does anyone know if the Kings badge for loyal service would of been WW1 era or is it WW2? I am trying to work out how it fits in as it was among his things? He had the SWB pin as he was discharged but I wonder if the other badge was related to something he did in WW2? He would of been in his fifties though? Unless it is not related and is someone else's entirely as it is not numbered etc. Could of been another relatives I was not aware of I guess!

[Michelle Young]

The tin you describe was sent by Princess Mary to troops for Christmas 1914. It is her head on the tin

http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/1329146/tin-princess-mary-s-christmas-gift-1914

Michelle

[Twonk1972]

Wow ok that's really good that. There is nothing in it but I would be amazed if there was after all this time to be honest. Thanks for that Michelle.

[Twonk1972]

Does anyone happen to know if I can find out from his SWB number 396847 as to why he was given his discharge? Will it state a reason anywhere and if so where would I go to find this info out?

Thanks

Steve

[Staffsyeoman]

In the photograph you have both the Silver War Badge for WW1 (and the answer is yes, you will be able to find out from the roll the reason for discharge) and the 'Loyal Service' badge for WW2 - the equivalent for that war, except they were not numbered and there is no (available) roll. Do not be swayed by anyone who tells you that the Loyal Service badge was awarded to anyone who did not qualify for campaign medals; this was an error which crept into its description in the Medals Yearbook a couple of years ago, and is wrong. The button is a Royal Scots Fusiliers button as well.

[FROGSMILE]

2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers:

August 1914: The Battalion was based in Gibraltar.

September 1914: Returned to the UK. They went on to the New Forest in Hampshire, attached to 21st Brigade, 7th Division.

04 October 1914: They set sail from Southampton.

06 October1914: Landed at Zeebrugge. Initially they were to assist in the defence of Antwerp but arrived too late so took positions at significant bridges and junctions to help in the retreat of the Belgian army.

October/November 1914: The First Battle of Ypres and became the first British troops to entrench in the front. Here they suffered greatly.

February 1915: Division had been reinforced to fighting strength.

March 1915: In action at The Battle Neuve Chapelle.

May 1915: In action at The Battles of Aubers Ridge and Festubert.

15-16 June 1915: In action at The second action of Givenchy.

September 1915: In action at The Battle of Loos.

20 December 1915: Had transferred with the same 21st Brigade to 30th Division. Soon after joining the Division the Brigade moved to 90th Brigade.

July 1916: They were again in action during The Battle of the Somme.

01 July 1916: The Division along with the 18th Division captured Montauban

March - April 1917: In pursuit of the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line.

April - May 1917: Took part in the Arras Offensive

31 July – 02 August: Took part in The Battle of Pilkem Ridge

07 April 1918: Transferred to 120th Brigade, 40th Division.

26 April 1918: Transferred to South African Brigade, 9th (Scottish) Division.

April 1918: In action in The Battle of Lys.

August 1918: The Advance in Flanders in which the Division captured the Outtersteene Ridge

13 September 1918: In the same Division transferred to 28th Brigade.

11 November 1918: The day of the Armistice they were resting.

9th (Reserve) Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers:

23 October 1914: The Battalion was formed in Gourock, Scotland as a Service Battalion of K4.

08 April 1915: It became a Reserve Battalion and moved to Paisley.

August 1915: By now was training at Stobs Camp.

October 1915: at Catterick, North Yorkshire.

April 1916: Returned to Scotland and moved to Inverkeithing.

September 1916: Converted into 55th Training Reserve Battalion of 12th Reserve Brigade.

[Stebie9173]

Regimental numbers could and did change in the Great War. It was 1920 before a unique Army number was introduced that stayed with a man.

Charles Duffield has two medal cards - known as "split cards" - the 1914 Star and the "pair" of British War Medal and Victory Medal were issued at separate times and sometimes the clerks could not locate the previous card when filling out the roll for the pair.

His first card - under "C Duffield" shows him going overseas on 6th October 1914 as a Corporal with the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers:

http://www.1914-1918.net/rsfus.htm

The Second Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers served with 7th Division and later 30th Division:

http://www.1914-1918.net/7div.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/30div.htm

This also shows the number 2/12052 for his time with the Training Reserve.

The 1914 Star Roll reference is Volume D/1/3, page 22

His second MIC (Medal Index Card) is under his R.S.F. number of 52975 and shows him finishing the war as a Sergeant, and apparently back in the Royal Scots Fusiliers. The BWM/VM medal roll reference is Volume D/102 B14, page 1677

This medal roll should show which battalions of the Royal Scots Fusiliers he served with during the war since it was not unusual for soldiers to switch battalions after being wounded, etc. At this stage, we need to be careful not to assume that he served exclusively with the 2nd Battalion.

Medal Rolls are physical books held at the National Archives at Kew in London.

I have looked at the service records held on the Ancestry website and he does not appear to have any surviving records.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Looking at the Pension Records of Royal Scots Fusiliers 52916 John Bennie, 52926 John Wilson and 52967 John Hayes the transfer back to the Royal Scots Fusiliers occurred around the end of May 1918 - probably to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion at Greenock. I suspect that he may have been training recruits by that time, having been wounded enough to prevent his return to the front line. This may have also been why he transferred to the Training Reserve.

Steve.

[Twonk1972]

Hi all. Thanks for all the above info, it's really appreciated. Not sure how you find all that out but it's blooming clever that's for sure. I think I will get myself down to Kew as I only live about 20 miles away so might be worthwhile going in and seeing what I can find out. It's quite addictive when you start and important that what all these brave fellas went through is not forgotten.

I know that both my young children have been really interested in all of this so if I can get them intersted in the subject they in turn can respect just what guys went through at the time.

Thanks all, really appreaciate all the informative comments and info and the time spent.

[Stebie9173]

There are a few men with very similar numbers in the Training Reserve. According to MICs these served with the 55th TRaining Reserve Battalion. According to the records of TR/2/12005 Harry Clayton it is likely that these men transferred from the 9th (Reserve) Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers when it became the 55th Training Reserve Battalion om 1st September 1916 and lost its Regimental identity. Men were usually transferred to the Reserve Battalions of their Regiment after they had recovered from wounds or sickness and were thus ready to be assigned to new duties that were appropriate to their medical grading (roughly: A1 - fit for the front line, B - fit for overseas garrison duty, C - fit for home service).

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

As far as I can tell at the moment this would have been a rough timeline of his service:

- 29-9-1904 Enlisted as a Boy

- ?-?-19?? Appointed as a Drummer

- ?-?-1907 Became an adult Soldier on his 18th Birthday

- Date unknown : Either posted to Reserve and returned to Civilian life after either 3, 7 or 8 years active service, or continued full time service if he elected to serve all 12 years of his normal term of enlistment on full time active service.

- 6-10-1914 went to the Western Front with 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers

- 1914 to 1916 Wounded or ill and evacuated to the UK

- 1915 or 1916 Transferred to 9th (Reserve) Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers upon return to full or partial fitness

- 1-9-1916 Transferred to 55th Training Reserve Battalion

- May 1918 Posted to 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers

- 1-6-1918 Discharged and issued a Silver War Badge

Steve.

[Twonk1972]

Wow that's amazing. Thanks so much for that! Not sure how you managed all that but it really does give an insight into his service and i thank you for the time spent on findig that out. I guess he must of been wounded quite early on in the war and looking at some of the RSF early actions they seem to be pretty much in the thick of it and more or less straight away upon arrival. It's a shame the majority of the WW1 service records were destroyed in WW2.

[Stebie9173]

Have you located him on the 1911 Census? That may give us more clues to his pre-war service. If you can tell us where he was from and who his parents were then we may be able to find him.

Steve.

[Twonk1972]

No I haven't unfortunately. That's going to be next job. Will speak to my elderly relatives in the family that would know more, I believe my mum may even have his marriage certificate somewhere.