Lt W H S Garnett RFC

[Dolphin]

I've done some research on Lt William Herbert Stuart Garnett RFC (formerly Lt Cdr RNR) who was killed while flying an (the?) Avro 521 on 21 September 1916. I know that he was commissioned in the RFC on 13 July 1915, and obtained Royal Aero Club Certificate No 3218 on 4 May 1916, after some service in France as an observer. However, I've not found details of his time in France, ie which squadron(s) he served in.

I'll be grateful for any advice.

Confusingly, there's another airman named W H S Garnett who appears in books about the period: a Flt Lt in the RNAS who flew in the Dardanelles campaign.

Gareth

[aradgick]

Gareth,

Here's a snippet from www.flightglobal.com

September 28th 1916

Fatal Accidents.

Lieut D. C. Beck, R.F.A., attd RFC , was killed on September 21st when landing to inquire his position. Apparently he had not slowed the machine sufficiently, and one of the wheels catching in a rut the machine turned over, pinning the pilot beneath. A verdict of "Accidental Death" was recorded at the inquest.

On the same day Lieut, W. H. Stuart Garnett, R.F.C., was killed at Upavon.

Also, from www.isle-of-wight-memorials.org.uk

"Lieutenant W H Stuart Garnett, who was killed at a Flying School on Thursday, was the second son of Dr William Garnett, late Educational Adviser to the L.C.C. [London County Council] Educated, like his elder brother Mr J C M Garnett, Principal of the Manchester School of Technology, at St Paul's School and Trinity College, Cambridge, where he was a scholar, he appeared as eighth Wrangler in 1902 and in the first class of the Mechanical Sciences Tripos in 1903.

Although he has died at the age of 34, he had lived a full and varied life. For a time he worked as a practical engineer and brought out a remarkable text-book on the turbine, and, being called to the Bar by the Inner Temple in 1905, he practised for some time, travelling the Western Circuit. He became interested in the National Insurance Scheme, on which he wrote a book with Mr Arthur Comyns Carr. Afterwards he gave up practice on appointment as Assistant Legal Adviser to the National Insurance Committee. An enthusiastic Alpine climber, and an ardent yachtsman, with a practical knowledge of seamanship and of the navigation of the Channel and North Sea, such as is possessed of few amateurs, he took keen interest in the Boy Scout movement, and in particular in active sea-scouting, on which he wrote a book, which has had a wide circulation. In order the better to devote himself to work among boys he lived for many years - and down to the outbreak of war - at Limehouse. When war broke out he obtained from Mr Steane Price the loan of his yacht Zarefah, which he manned, both as to officers and men, mainly with Cambridge graduates and under-graduates. The Zarefah was engaged in the mine-sweeping service. In the summer of last year, Mr Garnett, who had attained the rank of Lieutenant Commander, gave up his naval duties in order to join the Royal Flying Corps. He was an observer for several months in France, where his inventive genius had effective play, with the result that he was recalled home and joined the staff of the Central Flying School. Early this year he qualified as pilot. Lieutenant Garnett married, in August of last year, the only daughter of Mr and Mrs Bradley, of Streetley, Warwickshire. The funeral will take place at noon today at Charlton, near Upavon. Dr and Mrs Garnett are at a base hospital with their youngest son,[Lt K G Garnett] who was dangerously wounded about three weeks ago."

Information extracted from the Times Digital Online service - report in the Times of Sept 23rd 1916.

Lt Garnett was killed in a flying training accident at the Central Flying School, while flying Avro 521 serial no 7520.

Andrewr

[Old Owl]

I've done some research on Lt William Herbert Stuart Garnett RFC (formerly Lt Cdr RNR) who was killed while flying an (the?) Avro 521 on 21 September 1916. I know that he was commissioned in the RFC on 13 July 1915, and obtained Royal Aero Club Certificate No 3218 on 4 May 1916, after some service in France as an observer. However, I've not found details of his time in France, ie which squadron(s) he served in.

I'll be grateful for any advice.

Confusingly, there's another airman named W H S Garnett who appears in books about the period: a Flt Lt in the RNAS who flew in the Dardanelles campaign.

Gareth

Hi Gareth,

William Hubert Stuart Garnett.

According to the information which came when I purchased his 1914/15 Star Trio some years ago he served in France as an Observer with 23 Squadron RFC. This was only for a short period because he soon transferred to the C.F.S. at Upavon on 7/1/16, where he obtained his pilot's certificate and was employed as a Test Pilot for experimental purposes from 10/5/16.

As Andrew has pointed out he was killed whilst flying an Avro 512(the only one ever built)No 7520 on 21/9/16. The fatal crash occured at Gosport, Hants. Purpose of test flight: Testing of prototype which had proved longitudinally unstable and unpleasant to fly. Crew Fatalities: Lieut.W.H.S.Garnett.

He was a fascinating character and had accomplished more in his 34 years than the majority do in their whole lives. An interesting entry with photo appears in the Marquis de Ruvigny Roll, Vol.3, page 110.

May I ask where your interest in him rests?

Robert

[Dolphin]

Gentlemen

Thank you for your responses. My interest was sparked by his notice in de Ruvigny, and I'm writing an expanded piece based on that for the Journal of the Australian Society of WWI Aero Historians. Like you, I thought that he deserves to be remembered after cramming so much into a relativey short life.

I was impressed by his Naval exploit of swimming to a German mine and cutting the mooring cables so that it could be hoisted out of the water and examined.

Thanks again.

Gareth

[Dolphin]

Robert

As I review my notes I'm finding it difficult to sort out his time in France with No 23 Sqn, as the unit didn't go to France until 15 March 1916 - two months after LT W H S Garnett left it to go to the CFS.

I suspect that a date has been confused or mis-scribed somewhere.

Gareth

[Old Owl]

Hi Gareth,

There do appear to be one or two anomalies in his service record. His MIC states overseas 30/9/15, France, yet his s/r states: Presumed O/seas: 30/10/15 as Observer. Then, HMO

states: 22/11/15, 23 Squadron for duty as Observer. C.F.S., 7/1/16. Test Flight C.F.S. for experimental purposes 10/5/16.

At the top of the form it states: Date Sheet Started, 27/8/18. ?

All a little confusing and I am not certain if any more precise record exists of his short period of service with the RFC/CFS. Possibly the Squadron number is incorrectly recorded on his s/r?

He is certainly a most interesting character and most worthy of record in an article--infact he is on my list of those to do!! When I saw his medals for sale at a local medal fair I initially dismissed them, but having returned home I found his entry in Ruvigny and immediately called the dealer and made the purchase. I have not regretted this decision and I have subsequently purchased original copies of three of the books he wrote. I do know of the existence of a privately produced memorial volume entitled: "W.H.Stuart Garnett, Lieutenant Commander, R.N.R., and Lieutenant Royal Flying Corps, accidentally killed 21st September, 1916." ---unfortunately I have been unable to trace a copy--to date!

You will have noticed that his brother, Kenneth Gordon Garnett, also gave his life during WW1--again a most interesting character. A friend has sent me a copy of his memorial volume which makes fascinating reading.

Regards, Robert

[Dolphin]

Robert

Thank you for the additional information - even though it's rather confusing! The various memorial pieces about him seem definite about his being an observer in France, and one would expect that those who knew him would notice, and correct, an error.

Then there's his posting to the Test Flight at the CFS within a week of obtaining his RAeC Certificate; you'd have to think that he would have still been a relatively inexperienced pilot.

Sometimes I wonder if those who complied service records were setting out to confuse people who might read them nearly a century later.

Gareth

[Old Owl]

Robert

Thank you for the additional information - even though it's rather confusing! The various memorial pieces about him seem definite about his being an observer in France, and one would expect that those who knew him would notice, and correct, an error.

Then there's his posting to the Test Flight at the CFS within a week of obtaining his RAeC Certificate; you'd have to think that he would have still been a relatively inexperienced pilot.

Sometimes I wonder if those who complied service records were setting out to confuse people who might read them nearly a century later.

Gareth

Hi Gareth,

I don't think that there is any doubt that he served as an Observer during 1915, otherwise he would not have qualified for his Trio, named on the Star to Lieut.--- R.F.C. I agree that it does seem very soon after obtaining his certificate that he was appointed to the Test Flight section at the C.F.S., but it would appear that this was as a result of him inventing something which must have been thought to be very worthwhile. His entry in Ruvigny states: "--served with the Expeditionary Force in France, and whilst there made an invention which led to his transference to the Experimental Squadron of the Corps."

One has to wonder, I suppose, if it was whilst in the course of testing this invention, that he met with the accident which resulted in his death? I have not been able to find any reference to either, the nature of his invention or indeed the circumstances of his accident. I have only come across a reference which notes that this flight commenced at Upavon and ended at Gosport. It also states in his Pension records that on 21/9/16 he: "Died as a result of injuries sustained on flying duty( Mins 1 & 9.)." I wonder if he survived the accident and died shortly afterwards--this is the inference in my eyes.

I am almost certain that his 'Memorial Volume' would fill in a lot of the blank spaces. Hopefully a copy will turn up eventually!!

Robert

[fetubi]

Is this a pure co-incidence, or is it another piece of this curious jigsaw?

There is a FLt WHS Garnett out in the Dardanelles in early 1915: as per the RNAS Serials and Units by Sturtivant and Page.

We have this WHS Garnett (a pilot) in Sopwith 807 flying off HMS Ark Royal to monitor fire from HMS Queen Elizabeth with FCdr HA Williamson on 5 March 1915, but both crashed into the sea and were injured, though rescued. And then later, in Sopwith Schneider 1437 flying off HMS Doris on 29 April 1915 but having a forced landing in the sea and needing to be rescued once more.

Hmm! Probably someone else, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix!

Regards,

Trevor

[Dolphin]

Trevor

I, too, was confused by the two W H S Garnetts (see my intiial post). The RNR and RFC man was William Hubert Stuart Garnett, while the RNAS man was Walter Hugh Stewart Garnett.

It is a strange coincidence to have two men, both fliers, with the same names and intials.

Cheers

Gareth

[Old Owl]

Hi Both,

This appears to have created some confusion in the past and I believe that they were infact believed to be one and the same man at one stage--quite obviously they are not!

Although they both had very interesting experiences during their war service, by far the most interesting, for me, is that of William Hubert Stuart Garnett, which is really a most varied and fascinating story. I can't help thinking that he must surely have gone on to do even greater things had he survived the war.

Robert

[nils d]

Hi Gareth,

I don't think that there is any doubt that he served as an Observer during 1915, otherwise he would not have qualified for his Trio, named on the Star to Lieut.--- R.F.C. I agree that it does seem very soon after obtaining his certificate that he was appointed to the Test Flight section at the C.F.S., but it would appear that this was as a result of him inventing something which must have been thought to be very worthwhile. His entry in Ruvigny states: "--served with the Expeditionary Force in France, and whilst there made an invention which led to his transference to the Experimental Squadron of the Corps."

One has to wonder, I suppose, if it was whilst in the course of testing this invention, that he met with the accident which resulted in his death? I have not been able to find any reference to either, the nature of his invention or indeed the circumstances of his accident. I have only come across a reference which notes that this flight commenced at Upavon and ended at Gosport. It also states in his Pension records that on 21/9/16 he: "Died as a result of injuries sustained on flying duty( Mins 1 & 9.)." I wonder if he survived the accident and died shortly afterwards--this is the inference in my eyes.

I am almost certain that his 'Memorial Volume' would fill in a lot of the blank spaces. Hopefully a copy will turn up eventually!!

Robert

Surely the clincher as to his observer staus is this= is there a photo of him wearing the obs half wing? That could only be earned in France.

As an obs in the BEF this invention has to be something an obs would use i.e. not in the pilots cockpit so we should rule out a control device , a vickers gun gadget etc.My hunch is a Lewis gun add-on or a bomb sight based on his sailing background.

What a chap. YOU MUST FIND THAT MEMORIAL VOLUME!(and do a book not just an article)

[Dolphin]

The only photograph that I've seen of Lt W H S Garnett is the one on his Royal Aero Club Certificate, where he's wearing RFC pilot's wings.

A copy of the book would be wonderful, but I rather doubt that I'll stumble across one in an Australian second-hand bookshop - but one can always hope!

Gareth

[Old Owl]

Surely the clincher as to his observer staus is this= is there a photo of him wearing the obs half wing? That could only be earned in France.
As an obs in the BEF this invention has to be something an obs would use i.e. not in the pilots cockpit so we should rule out a control device , a vickers gun gadget etc.My hunch is a Lewis gun add-on or a bomb sight based on his sailing background.
What a chap. YOU MUST FIND THAT MEMORIAL VOLUME!(and do a book not just an article)

Hi Nils,

Thanks for your interest.

I suppose that we can only speculate at this stage as to the purpose of the invention and as you say this may well have been related to an observer rather than the pilot, however, he was such a brilliant scholar of almost any subject that I could quite well imagine that there must have been something quite special about his invention for the authorities to appointment him to the experimental squadron, so soon after qualifying for his pilot's certificate. Also as far as I can tell the test flight in which he was killed was flown by WHSG alone and as such would have made his invention a pilot based one, rather than for an observer---of course this is mere speculation, but would seem to hold some merit?

I am certain that at least one or more copies of his memorial volume exist, however, tracking one down is a different matter!!

Robert

[Old Owl]

The only photograph that I've seen of Lt W H S Garnett is the one on his Royal Aero Club Certificate, where he's wearing RFC pilot's wings.

A copy of the book would be wonderful, but I rather doubt that I'll stumble across one in an Australian second-hand bookshop - but one can always hope!

Gareth

Yes, unfortunately there appears to be only one photo of him in existence which shows him wearing his pilot's wings. I have found the photo from three differnet sources, but all appear to be exactly the same.

Robert

[lancashire]

May 26 2015,

Morning,

I find this topic interesting as one I wish to find out more of the second Walter Hugh Stewart Garnett who was my grandfather, about who I know little of despite not passing away till 1971

Born 25th June 1891, Monmouthshire.

War Service.

Royal Aero Club # 618, 10^th September 1913, Bristol Mono Plane, Salisbury Plain.

14-8-1914 War office indicate rank of Flight Lt.

Promoted Flt Sub lieutenant to Flight Lt gazetted Jan 8th 2015 just before the following!

Lieutenant GARNETT, Royal Naval Air Service, pilot of a Sopwith 808 on 14th February 1915. Whilst taxiing to take off in Grand Harbour the left float of his aircraft struck the top of a wave which tore it off and at the same time turned the plane over into the water. He was rescued along with his passenger.

Records state left Gallipoli Campaign 1-1-1916. The Campaign dates given as 25 April 1915 to 9 January 1916.

Post Gallipoli- back in the UK, various locations, executive duties.

Flight Commander war office records confirmed 30-6-1917

Milford Haven, Staff to the Vice Admiral 22-7-1918, transferred to the unemployed list 1-4-1919

I have managed to purchase the following and two earlier books on the naval Air Service.

Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919 Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page.

From this thread and another web hit I have found the following:

There is a FLt WHS Garnett out in the Dardanelles in early 1915: as per the RNAS Serials and Units by Sturtivant and Page. ( My grandfather)

This ties up with the event in Malta as well i.e. en route to the Dardanelles!

I suspect again my grandfather as he was Naval Air Service)

We have this WHS Garnett (a pilot) in Sopwith 807 flying off HMS Ark Royal to monitor fire from HMS Queen Elizabeth with FCdr HA Williamson on 5 March 1915, but both crashed into the sea and were injured, though rescued.

And then later, in Sopwith Schneider 1437 flying off HMS Doris on 29 April 1915 but having a forced landing in the sea and needing to be rescued once more.

More found:

I wonder what happened to the Naval Air pilots after the Dardanelles, however from the war office records he remained in the UK on executive duties and staff.

The squadron was formed as No. 3 Squadron RNAS on 1 September 1914 at Saint-Pol-sur-Mer.^{[citation needed]} In March 1915, the squadron, under the command of Commander Charles Samson, moved to the island of Tenedos, and began operating 18 aircraft in support of the Gallipoli Campaign. In the first weeks of the campaign they took over 700 photographs of the peninsula, and conducted other ground support tasks including spotting for naval gunfire, and reporting the movements of Ottoman troops. On 21 June 1915, the squadron became No. 3 Wing RNAS and was moved to Imbros.^[1]

A new 3 Squadron was formed at Saint Pol on 5 November 1916 from elements of No. 1 Wing RNAS. It then served as a fighter squadron on the Western Front. Among the numerous types of aircraft it was equipped with were the Nieuport 17, Nieuport 21, and Sopwith Pup, followed later by the Sopwith Camel.^[2]

I look forward to more info, though it seems his flying stopped after the Dardanelles, from the above i.e. Tenedos, Imbros would these have been land based air strips or would the pilots have been flying from the ships? How many pilots were needed for 18 planes? ( I will look these up after writing this).

regards John

[pete-c]

May 26 2015,

Morning,

I find this topic interesting as one I wish to find out more of the second Walter Hugh Stewart Garnett who was my grandfather, about who I know little of despite not passing away till 1971

JG,

I've also left these details on the CCI Forum.

TNA AIR1/726/137/2 Ark Royal flying log, Jan 1915-Jan 1916.

Peter.

[lancashire]

Morning, Peter,

I am also using the CCI forum too, although I first found the WHSG link here should I as a rule of thumb use CCI for aviation matters or should I counter post here as well!

I have also made contact with ww1 aero club in Australia as they had troops on the ground I will probably join theirs as well to increase coverage!

Just posted some 2 new topics on CC!, Tenedos and Imbros / Aliki Bay John

[pete-c]

John,

I would suggest trying to keep the number of topics to a minimum as it could lead to confusion for Forum members - both here, as well as CCI - as well as yourself. It's very tempting to get as much information as possible, especially when new to a subject, but it is also very easy to get tied in knots when you try and piece it all together once you have got it!

Peter. (Whiskymac)

[mickdavis]

Just a thought but if WHS Garnett died at Gosport on 21.9.196, spinning in from 1500ft, wan't that 23 Sqn's base at the time? Was the casualty reported by 23 Sqn?

[mickdavis]

Further to that, the RAFM Casualty Cards give a Lt AK Motron as injured in a flying accident on the same date, without any further details - could he have been the pilot and Garnett a passenger?

[nieuport11]

I think that is AH Morton, who was a Flight Commander with 8Sq in March 1916 and promoted to a Squadron Commander 1.12.16 and was with 39(HD)Sq by January 1917

No record of his being with 23Sq or the CFS, but my record is incomplete

[pete-c]

May 26 2015,

Morning,

I find this topic interesting as one I wish to find out more of the second Walter Hugh Stewart Garnett who was my grandfather, about who I know little of despite not passing away till 1971

Born 25th June 1891, Monmouthshire.

War Service.

Royal Aero Club # 618, 10^th September 1913, Bristol Mono Plane, Salisbury Plain.

14-8-1914 War office indicate rank of Flight Lt.

Promoted Flt Sub lieutenant to Flight Lt gazetted Jan 8th 2015 just before the following!

Lieutenant GARNETT, Royal Naval Air Service, pilot of a Sopwith 808 on 14th February 1915. Whilst taxiing to take off in Grand Harbour the left float of his aircraft struck the top of a wave which tore it off and at the same time turned the plane over into the water. He was rescued along with his passenger.

Walter Hugh Stewart Garnett RNAS.

John, I don't know if you are aware of all the entries in Ark Royal's log - 17 in total - that mention your Grandfather, but the last entry I can find is on November 11th 1915, when he is dispatched to the SNO, (Senior Naval Officer) at Mudros. Ark Royal was at this time anchored at Salonika.

Perhaps he was employed on various duties at HQ Mudros until his return to the UK?

As you know he flew Schneider 1437 to Aliki Bay on June 23rd, 1915. I can only presume that he was stationed at Aliki Bay from that day, until he returned to Ark Royal sometime before August 3rd, when he was in charge of the dispatch boat patrol.

Let me know if you haven't seen all your Grandfather's Ark Royal log entries.

Peter.

[lancashire]

Peter,

Thanks, yes I have seen the Ark Royal logs though as you mention its ends, for now struggling to obtain information ref Aliki Base as from the entries he must have been flying from there, I also found MHS Usk's entry of fishing them out of the water after the HMS Queen Elizabeth incident, the Hospital ship MHS Soudran has no logs posted on the web. Slowly learning more, my step uncles wife has some info and I'm really hoping it will include his flying log book! This is all a some months away.

Still found out quite a lot ref Walter Hugh Stewart Garnett, survived the war!

St Pauls School London has a photo of W Herbert S Garnett who was killed as mentioned in the start of this thread / topic. (web site as well).

[1494_new]

1471_new WHS Garnett. See Lushington.: Originally posted 03 September 2014. Further to those who were interested in William Hubert Stuart Garnett and continuing a two year old conversation - GWF: 14/15 /16 May 2013 (DOLPHIN / OLD OWL etc) - I do have further information on Garnett - he being my grandmother's first husband - both in his RNR and RFC days .... and am still in touch with his immediate family. Was also really interested (old owl : 15th May 2013) in hearing of the present whereabouts of his trio - last heard of in a DNW auction of 7/12/05 and I had made further enquiries as to where they might have ended up! No luck then ! Had been looking for years ! First refusal ?! Please let me know if more information is required - I'd be happy to pass what I have on to anyone who might be interested. Also information on his brother, Kenneth G. MC. Lieutenant / RFA. Following w/site : www.bremnerroots.co.uk/bunny shows WHSG in September 1914 as a Lieutenant Cmdr RNVR : i/c HMY Zarefa. Also it is possible that I have a copy of his memorial volume.