Kath Posted 23 April , 2013 Share Posted 23 April , 2013 These officers are in Helston taking part in the Furry Dance. Does anyone know what uniforms they are, please? Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest exuser1 Posted 23 April , 2013 Share Posted 23 April , 2013 They appear to be RAF ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 April , 2013 Share Posted 23 April , 2013 Yes, they are post WW1 Royal Air Force (RAF) officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 23 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2013 Thank you. Was the uniform very different? Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 April , 2013 Share Posted 23 April , 2013 Thank you. Was the uniform very different? Kath. They had initially been khaki still, but a new cloth in a blue-grey hue was found and new uniforms made. I enclose an image of these uniforms and the initial head dress worn. Notice the vertical bars each side of the central emblem. New RAF uniform = (Flight magazine, edition 28/3/1918) If you type "RAF Uniforms" into the search function in this (uniforms) part of the forum you can read a lot more detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 23 April , 2013 Share Posted 23 April , 2013 Thank you. Was the uniform very different? Kath. The tunics as shown in your photo would be appropriate as service/ day wear from July 1918. Prior to July, the blue-grey uniform was for mess wear only (having been introduced in April 1918; simultaneously alongside a serge version for service wear) and one would have expected to see vertical gilt bars - rank signifiers - on the cap band either side of the badge. As the Furry Dance takes place in May, and the cap bars are absent ("suppressed" in July 1918), this looks like May 1919 earliest. The white shirt for evening wear was a 1918 and 1919 thing too. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 23 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2013 Thank you FROGSMILE & Grovetown for your illuminating answers. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 The photo above is the first pattern khaki RAF uniform not a blue one , the Russian 'blue' appeared a wee bit later but was in use before the end of hostilities - April 1 1918 to early 1919 before the current shade of darker blue was introduced, the early 8-10 months was a nightmare of overlapping uniform styles in use, many continued to sport RFC wings, jackets etc. The wedding picture is defiantly c. 1920 forward. this website has a nice survey of the period in question http://www.britairforce.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 The photo above is the first pattern khaki RAF uniform not a blue one Oh no: between us we've now entered the realm of opinion - arising from the difficulty in judging colour and shade in black and white photos. Aaargh! The constructional details of the blue-grey and serge tunics were the same, and the only date clues we have are the absence of rank bars on the caps; and that the Furry Dance is in May. Those put it at least after July 1918, and May 1919 onwards. (Cap band bars were scrapped in respect of serge dress in October 1918). Frogsmile (I believe) and I see blue, you see serge - and suppose there's no arguing it either way as it is so subjective. That said, if I get time, I'll try to post some side-by-side pix of blues and serges to see if that helps. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 Oh no: between us we've now entered the realm of opinion - arising from the difficulty in judging colour and shade in black and white photos. Aaargh! The constructional details of the blue-grey and serge tunics were the same, and the only date clues we have are the absence of rank bars on the caps; and that the Furry Dance is in May. Those put it at least after July 1918, and May 1919 onwards. (Cap band bars were scrapped in respect of serge dress in October 1918). Frogsmile (I believe) and I see blue, you see serge - and suppose there's no arguing it either way as it is so subjective. That said, if I get time, I'll try to post some side-by-side pix of blues and serges to see if that helps. Cheers, GT. Yes I agree blue and no later than 1919, as seems likely too from the dress of the ladies. Does anyone have access to 'Flight' magazine, edition 28/3/1918 and if so what does it say there about the colour of the 'new' uniform.? The illustration (i.e. photo) certainly looks too pale to be khaki drab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 24 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2013 Thank you all. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 Sorry GT - no, not a matter of opinion but fact. The bars on the cap band were not worn on ay RAF dress other than the Khaki, and not by all. The sleeve eagles and crowns just above the rank lace on the sleeve, again - only worn on the Khaki tunic, never on the blue and were a different pattern form the RNAS sleeve eagles, which did not have a crown device above the eagle.. Andrew Comack's Osprey books on the RFC and RAF are a great basic primer on these things. I will post colour picture of the ones in my collection that will show you clearly the distinctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 The sleeve eagles and crowns just above the rank lace on the sleeve, again - only worn on the Khaki tunic, never on the blue and were a different pattern form the RNAS sleeve eagles, which did not have a crown device above the eagle. Hi Scott We (I) can't see eagles or crowns in the OP's photo, so not sure of the relevance as a distinction between the two potential types here. As an aside re Cormack: have a look at caption to image on p. 5 - "autumn 1918, in the pale blue uniform. The cuff eagles and cap rank tabs have disappeared". I'm genuinely curious as to why he would say they've disappeared from the blue tunic if they were never on it? He also includes an image of rank lace and eagle on tropical dress, so "only" on khaki is also confusing too. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 Hi GT, here is what I refer to: the Blue uniforms did not have this insignia device, only the Khaki tunics, I'll get pictures of mine when I get home from work and you will see immediately what the distinction is I am referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 24 April , 2013 Share Posted 24 April , 2013 I see that, yet what is Cormack saying then? I'm struggling to understand why he would refer to "cuff eagles" as having "disappeared" from the "pale blue uniform" if they never had them in the first place. Is he mistaken? And is there a regulations reference that trumps his being Keeper of Uniforms at Hendon? And again, whether the eagles were on blue or not doesn't inform our identification of the original poster's photo as being blue or serge. We can't see the sleeves properly anyhow...so all this, while all very interesting, is a bit irrelevant in that respect. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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