Regimental markings on metford bayonet

[jscott]

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a regimental marking on a 1888 bayonet - it reads 13 LDR (plus rack number). My guess is the 13 Light Dragoons (although I believe they were officially referred to as hussars during the GW). Has anyone seen this marking before, or have any thoughts on what it may stand for?

Thanks, J

[TonyE]

A possibility, is there a period between the "L" and the "DR?

Regards

TonyE

[jscott]

Thanks Tony - the marking is in two rows as follows:

13.LD

R.505

I do find the less common (ie non infantry regiment) british markings quite confusing.

Cheers, J

[Lancashire Fusilier]

J,

LD can be for either Territorial Regiments - the City of London Battalion ( LD ) or the County of London Battalion ( LD )

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

Thanks LF - so presumably that would refer to the 13th London regiment (the Kensingtons)? I guess there is no way of definitively determining whether it refers to the light dragoons or london regiment?

J

[4thGordons]

Thanks LF - so presumably that would refer to the 13th London regiment (the Kensingtons)? I guess there is no way of definitively determining whether it refers to the light dragoons or london regiment?

J

I am not sure "Dragoons" or "Hussars" would have been armed with a weapon which the P 1888 would fit. Metford/Enfield Carbines with the exception of RIC and NZ carbines were not equipped to take a bayonet.If they served as infantry in the Great War I think it likely they would have been reequipped with SMLEs (and thus P1907 bayonets) as I have yet to see a photo of any Metford/Enfield carbines on the Western Front. RIC carbines do show up in pictures from Ireland in 1916.

London Regiment seems much much more likely.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Thanks Tony - the marking is in two rows as follows:

13.LD

R.505

Hi J, this will indicate the 13th (County of London) Battalion, London Regiment (Kensington) which were part of the TF force raised in 1908.

The lower section with the R prefix is the rack number for the unit. The R stands for Reservist and is commonly seen on bayonets of that period.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks LF - so presumably that would refer to the 13th London regiment (the Kensingtons)? I guess there is no way of definitively determining whether it refers to the light dragoons or london regiment?

J

J,

I can see no specific regimental mark or listing for ' Light Dragoons '. The regimental mark shown on arms for the ' Dragoons ' is ' D ' and for the ' Dragoon Guards ' is ' D.G. '.

So I would think your bayonet is marked for either of those London Territorial Regiments.

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

Thanks all, this is extremely helpful.

Just to confirm, my understanding is that whilst regular battalions and a lot of territorial battalions used SMLEs and 1907 bayonets on the western front and elsewhere (and this was definitely the "norm"), certain territorials used metfords/ 1888 bayonets. I could definitely be wrong, as Im no expert!

Thanks, Jonathan

[jscott]

Hmm. Well thats interesting. Someone bought the bayonet i was looking at (which had these markings) in the 10 minutes after I started this post.

Oh well. Thanks for the info anyway.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks all, this is extremely helpful.

Just to confirm, my understanding is that whilst regular battalions and a lot of territorial battalions used SMLEs and 1907 bayonets on the western front and elsewhere (and this was definitely the "norm"), certain territorials used metfords/ 1888 bayonets. I could definitely be wrong, as Im no expert!

Thanks, Jonathan

With the drastic shortages of arms and equipment experienced at the start of the War, older and in some cases obsolete equipment was drafted into service. I do have a photograph, taken early in WW1 with 3 soldiers each equipped with .303 Metford Rifles. Again, the pattern 1888 bayonet was also still very much in use in the early part of WW1 with any regiment or unit equipped with Lee Enfield ' Long Lee ' Rifles.

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

Thank you LF, much appreciated.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hmm. Well thats interesting. Someone bought the bayonet i was looking at (which had these markings) in the 10 minutes after I started this post.

Oh well. Thanks for the info anyway.

J,

I am sure it had nothing to do with your post, as you do not even mention if you owned the bayonet, had an intention to buy the bayonet, or that it was even up for sale.

I am sure another will come along, they always do.

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

I hope you're right LF, not to worry!

Also, I meant to ask, do you have any particular reference for your understanding of these regimental markings? I generally just look at some websites which list the obvious markings, but would be keen to pick up a book with some more detailed information if possible.

Thanks

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I hope you're right LF, not to worry!

Also, I meant to ask, do you have any particular reference for your understanding of these regimental markings? I generally just look at some websites which list the obvious markings, but would be keen to pick up a book with some more detailed information if possible.

Thanks

An excellent book for Regimental Marks and the markings on weapons is ' The Broad Arrow ' by Ian D. Skennerton.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

Hmm. Well thats interesting. Someone bought the bayonet i was looking at (which had these markings) in the 10 minutes after I started this post.

Thats unfortunate, as I was going to say that you seldom see unit markings on the P1888 bayonets that you can reliably date to that just pre-war period.

Usually with the markings to line regiments they could have been stamped at any time since the inception of the bayonet model (or the date it was made)

Could you tell us when the particular bayonet was made, or even better post the link to the auction.? As you said it's finished, should be no harm in that.?

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Hi S>S, I'm afraid not - it was on a site which removes the item when it sells. Cheers, J

[4thGordons]

Thanks all, this is extremely helpful.

Just to confirm, my understanding is that whilst regular battalions and a lot of territorial battalions used SMLEs and 1907 bayonets on the western front and elsewhere (and this was definitely the "norm"), certain territorials used metfords/ 1888 bayonets. I could definitely be wrong, as Im no expert!

Thanks, Jonathan

This is quite correct. I was referring to Dragoon/Hussar units who would (in earlier days) have been equipped with carbines.

Various marks of "long" Lee Enfield - mostly, but not exclusively Charger-Loading Lee-Enfields - were in use throughout 1914/1915 and these did of course mount the P1888 bayonet. By 1916 they had largely disappeared from the front lines on the Western Front it seems, although in a previous thread on the forum a diary entry was produced which showed one unit that had held onto them until 1917. So Long Lees are common in photos of Flanders in 1915 and at Loos / Bellewaarde in Sept of 1915 but I have never (yet!) seen one in the context of the Somme in 1916 for example. The 1/4th Gordons fought at Bellewaarde in Sept '15 armed with CLLEs and P1888s, but appear to have replaced them with SMLEs and P1907s around the time they joined the 51st Div in Feb 1916.

Chris

[TonyE]

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a regimental marking on a 1888 bayonet - it reads 13 LDR (plus rack number).?..........

Thanks, J

You did not say it was in two lines in your original post!

Agree, it is the 13th London.

There were 130,000 Lee Metfords in store when war broke out in 1914 but these were only considered fit for Drill. Some could have been issued to the 13th but it is more likely that the P.'88 bayonet was used on a Magazine Lee-Enfield.

Certainly the 13th London were issued with .256 inch Arisakas in January 1915 for training as this picture shows.

Regards

TonyE

[jscott]

Thanks Tony - and yes I'm afraid that I didn't realise the significance of the marking being over three lines.

It did get me thinking about some of the other 1888's that I own and when I went through them I found something quite interesting. I have one 1888 bayonet (dated 1894) which is marked to the 5th Gloucestershire regiment (which I originally acquired for the WW1 significance). I have just noticed that hidden further down on the pommel - and crossed out with small hatches (although still quite clear) is the following:

V

CGR (the "C" could potentially be a "G")

57

I believe that this could refer to the Coldstream (or Grenadier) Guards, however Im not sure why there would be a "V" (presumably for volunteer) in connection with these regiments? I would be very interested to hear if anyone has any thoughts on this marking. If nothing else it would seem that the bayonet had quite an illustrious life.

Many thanks, Jonathan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Jonathan,

Could you post a photograph of the pommel markings ? as :-

GR - Gloucester Regiment

C.G. - Coldstream Guards

G.G. - Grenadier Guards

Canadian Regiments - which were issued with the P1888 bayonet :-

C.R. - Cumnerland Regiment

C.G. - Corps of Guides

G.R. - The Grey Regiment

C.G.G. - Canadian Grenadier Guards

Regards,

LF

[jscott]

LF

Thanks for your quick response. I've been having all sort of problems trying to attach photos but it seems this has worked. Its not quite as clear as it is in the hand, but hopefully helpful.

Thanks, Jonathan

PS. I wonder if the regimental markings varied slightly pre-WW1 (ie perhaps the GGR/ CGR marking is from the boer war?)