Clydeside in WW1

[tn.drummond]

As part of my research around the political aspects of Britain in WW1 - particularly in this instance the climate of objection - I'm interested in sourcing a dispassionate read about the issues of the 'Red Clydeside' movement of the period. I don't want anything polemic and I've scanned through more websites than are healthy. I'm seeking both the academic and anecdotal but particularly publications that members have read. I'm not particularly interested in pointers to Political websites.

My root interest is about the contribution of the war - military, social, economic and political - towards the dissolution of Empire.

Tim

[Amberdog]

Hi Tim, if you use the advanced search in the 'britishnewspaperarchives' and restrict your search to 'red clydeside' there are 5 articles there spanning 1924-1949.

The Glasgow Herald is also in the Google archives but not searchable like the above site. There's probably lots in those papers, but it would be a slow process reading through one paper at a time. You might also find help at the facebook page "Scotland and the Spanish Civil War". All the best with your search.

Tim, had another thought. Have you tried the Marx Library in London? I'd imagine it houses quite a collection. I found my great uncle's letters from the Spanish Civil War there. I got copies sent, so I don't know how it works walking in and accessing the archives. Just something else to add to your growing list!

[tn.drummond]

Hi Tim, if you use the advanced search in the 'britishnewspaperarchives' and restrict your search to 'red clydeside' there are 5 articles there spanning 1924-1949.

The Glasgow Herald is also in the Google archives but not searchable like the above site. There's probably lots in those papers, but it would be a slow process reading through one paper at a time. You might also find help at the facebook page "Scotland and the Spanish Civil War". All the best with your search.

That is most helpful and I'll certainly try both.

Many thanks

Tim

[MichaelBully]

Will be keeping an eye on this thread myself. I have only skimmed the surface as it were about Red Clydeside but found Trevor Royle's 'The Flowers of the Forest-Scotland and the First World War' a help.

I am sure that some time back I posted on GWF about the Glasgow Mayday March of 1918 ,will try to find this.

John Buchan's novel 'Mr. Standfast' sees Richard Hannay visiting Clydeside whilst tracking enemy agents.

Regards

Michael Bully

Edit : Have found the 'Mayday' thread mentioned above.

Centurion kindly highlighted an academic article in #2 thereof which looked interesting.

 

 

[tn.drummond]

All grist for the mill Michael - will add to the list.

I'll probably avoid the Hannay but it never ceases to astonish how often he crops up in matters WW1.

Many thanks

Tim

[MichaelBully]

Pleased if I can help Tim.....and I will be following this thread.

I found that 'Mr. Standfast' was actually full of unexpected twists. BBC Radio 4 extra have featured ( slightly abridged) dramatisations of the novel.

Have thought, perhaps search the National Archives catalogue to see what information there is concerning security monitoring of John Maclean between 4th January -4th April 1918 . Maclean was arrested on 15th April 1918 and charged with sedition, being put on trial in Edinburgh 11th May 1918, ( from looking at ROYLE cited above)

Regards

Michael Bully

All grist for the mill Michael - will add to the list.

I'll probably avoid the Hannay but it never ceases to astonish how often he crops up in matters WW1.

Many thanks

Tim

[tn.drummond]

Michael

I'm obviously interested in Maclean but what I am really looking for is a publication that encompasses the whole movement. If none such exists then I'll have to to search archives, etc as much as I am able to.

Again, thanks.

Tim

[kenf48]

The Times Digital Archive (usually available on your home computer through your County Library service) has a number of articles on the strike and it's aftermath, in particular April 14/15 1916 deals with the trials and sentencing.

There are also some references in Hansard

There is a good online archive for Maclean http://www.marxists.org/archive/maclean/index.htm

Also consider

Revolt on the Clyde William Gallacher (Gallagher)

My Life of Revolt David Kirkwood M.P.

As with Maclean I think you have to accept the polemic and self interest in these accounts especially Gallacher (being imprisoned for twelve months probably made him a bit upset at the 'Establishment!').

Milestones in Working Class History Norman Longmate BBC has chapter on 'Class War on the Clyde' and includes extracts from the Ministry of Munitions report

[there is a copy currently available on a well known auction site for 99p + postage

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MILESTONES-IN-WORKING-CLASS-HISTORY-Norman-Longmate-BBC-/321107693845?]

(The others are out of print but may be available through usual sources)

You say you're not interested in pointers to political websites but just in case, there is an extensive bibliography on 'Red Clydeside' here:-

http://sites.scran.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyde/docs/rcbibliography.htm

Ken

[tn.drummond]

Ken, I really am indebted for your hard work and recommendations. I've put a bid on the 'Longmate' as it will be helpful for its pointers in addition to anything on Clydeside.

The reason I did not request websites was that I've pretty much hammered them. I had accessed the last site you mentioned and was looking for personal comment on

any that had been read by Forum members as so many sources are quoted - embarrassment of riches and all that.

I've surfed a number of the Communist and Marxist websites and yes, they are useful but how analytical and critical they are prepared to be I'm not sure. I also read so

much rhetoric in the seventies I've developed a bit of an antipathy to it.

What I may well end up doing is trying to pick up cheap copies of the 'Red Clydeside' bibliography and 'suck and see'. I think the time this takes is what initiated my

posting and someone pointing me in the direction of a specific single volume on which to base my reading was what I wanted. The BBC volume may be the starting point I

need.

Many thanks

Tim

[kenf48]

You're welcome,

I see you are currently reading David Lloyd George, my main interest as far as labour relations is the South Wales Miners, their strike in 1915 was settled by Lloyd George by conceding virtually all their demands and which many commentators believe led to a philosophy of 'strike first' and negotiate later.

Although Kirkwood's main issue was that of 'dilution' and the resentment of the 'serfdom' imposed by the 'leaving certificates' introduced in the Munitions of War Act his memoir is very self-justifying whereas Beardmore actually asked him who was running the works. Of course his arrogance could be interpreted as toughness and conviction but I think this is why his autobiography needs to be approached with caution, much like wartime memoirs published in the same period. To a large extent it depends on which side of the political fence you sit. (I don't know if you've fully explored the Glasgow Library site but there is a lot of useful stuff there, e.g. the original contract between Beardmore's and the Ministry of Munitions which eventually led to the dispute and Kirkwood's 'deportation' to Edinburgh and also more information on the process of 'dilution').

While Kirkwood acknowledges in many other countries he may have been shot he (and his supporters) looked upon it as exile to van Diemen's Land, rather than the fact he and his fellow shop stewards were given a ten bob note and a one way ticket to Edinburgh. They were seen off by over 200 supporters, no doubt including many of those that signed the letter in 'Forward' and again reproduced on the Glasgow Library site

http://sites.scran.a...yde/rc200a.html (link for Michael!)

While his four compatriots accepted work in England Kirkwood remained in Edinburgh but was eventually allowed to return to Glasgow and eventually took a job as a manager in a munitions factory, where apparently he increased production and remained in post until the war's end. It is interesting both he and Gallacher use the word 'Revolt' in their biographies, it was not much of a revolution though it obviously shook the Ministry of Munitions.

In the end it was this firm action and the gaoling of Gallagher and his colleagues that brought an end to the immediate dispute, although industrial unrest continued in Glasgow and other manufacturing centres throughout the war and beyond the peace especially after the Russian Revolution.

btw have you considered the library inter-loan service? My local branch library is amazing and has managed to find nearly all the obscure titles I've asked them for - many coming from reference libraries all over the country. You have to pay a small fee and the loan period is limited but it's a great service.

Ken

(Good luck with your bid - it's been re-listed at least half a dozen times - so fingers crossed!)

[tn.drummond]

Ken

Fascinating.

I do have a copy of LLoyd Georges' two volumes in the attic and I can't see me getting them down. When I dabbled into them in 4 or 5 years ago I found them far too self serving for my liking. The Hattersley is thus far excellent. Detached and critical with some very clear headed observation - no one's pulled the wool over his eyes. He's a fine writer and although I'm a quarter way through (eldest daughter staying this weekend so I'll be rather annoyingly stymied) I really can thoroughly recommend it to all and any interested in 'Radical' politics.

I think Hattersley tends to come from the same direction as me i.e. George was a manipulating show off and a changeling but that doesn't mean that he wasn't an important figure in the history of radical politics. My criticism of him is that he largely stood more for what he was against rather than what he was for; certainly no conviction politician and he never minded stealing others' thunder. Not quiet radical for radical's sake but certainly in the same neighbourhood. My word though, he certainly rattled some cages in the early days..

My interest in all of these matters centres on the political imperatives that led to the dissolution of Empire (be they from protest. party, economics or war).This effectively gives me a scope of 1857 and the Indian Mutiny (probably the Empire's point of apotheosis) through to Macmillan, MacLeod and the late 1960's. Bang in the middle of all of this sits WW1 and this is where my table is laid. My central disquisition is therefore ' How and where did the 1914-15 conflict, home and abroad, contribute to the disolution of the British Empire' . George is of interest because not only was he a Liberal Imperialist he was also once a home rule advocate (though not too far, so to my mind perhaps not at all!). He was also an imperialist who opposed the Boer war - hardly a coherent philosophy but an influential one.

So, from the above potted comment I hope you can draw that what I'm very interested about in the Scottish struggle is where their protests touched on anti-imperialism rather than the mechanics of their own more immediate personal class struggle. The 'Socialist International' perspective is obviously a potentially fecund tree here but from what I can thus far establish this really came to the fore post WW2 in Africa and Asia. I want to sniff around where it impacted in the Great War.

Does that make sense ?

With regard to the inter-library loan service I do use it. I'm a great supporter of my library but it is unfortunately 7 miles away so once I've added petrol costs to loan charges (I think the last ILL book I borrowed cost £6 + as it was sourced from a University). buying is sometimes the more viable option. My local library is also not the glory that I remember the Eastbourne Borough Library being - hope the anti-biblio brigade haven't dared to tamper with it.

Anyway, I've Hattersley to finish and then all the leads you've thrown up to chase. If you give me a week or so I'll post back what I've found and where I've found it.

It's been good batting around a few ideas.

Tim

[kenf48]

My interest in all of these matters centres on the political imperatives that led to the dissolution of Empire (be they from protest. party, economics or war).This effectively gives me a scope of 1857 and the Indian Mutiny (probably the Empire's point of apotheosis) through to Macmillan, MacLeod and the late 1960's. Bang in the middle of all of this sits WW1 and this is where my table is laid. My central disquisition is therefore ' How and where did the 1914-15 conflict, home and abroad, contribute to the disolution of the British Empire' .

Tim

The above is a concept explored in John H. Morrow's 'The Great War An Imperial History' which if you've not read may give some insights

http://www.amazon.co...s=john h morrow

A bio of the author is here

http://history.uga.e...ple.php?page=26

he provides a unique perspective on the colonial impact of the conflict.

Ken

[david todd]

hi all, the mitchel library glasgow web site might be worth a look,regards david

[tn.drummond]

The above is a concept explored in John H. Morrow's 'The Great War An Imperial History' which if you've not read may give some insights

http://www.amazon.co...s=john h morrow

A bio of the author is here

http://history.uga.e...ple.php?page=26

he provides a unique perspective on the colonial impact of the conflict.

Ken

Hi Ken

I'm aware of him and it but haven't yet read. The pivotal tome for me is "The Rise and fall of the British Empire" by Lawrence James. A lot of my reading has grown from its bibliography together with that of 'Raj' by the same author. As both were written in the '90's I must admit I do sometimes miss out on more recent stuff like Morrow.

I'm plugging away on Hattersley's 'LLoyd George' and reading a lot around it. It continues to both absorb and send me off at tangents if I let it.

Good news - I won the book Longmate at 99p + very reasonable P&P. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Tim

[tn.drummond]

hi all, the mitchel library glasgow web site might be worth a look,regards david

Hi David

Please don't feel 'cold shouldered'

I'm very grateful and will get to this resource sometime.

Thanks

Tim

[kenf48]

Good news - I won the book Longmate at 99p + very reasonable P&P. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Tim

Excellent! I guess the 1975 series might be bit more difficult to find on iplayer - 1975 now there was a time!

btw I forgot to mention my usual caveat I've no connection with the seller but I think it might be easier reading.

Ken

[tn.drummond]

Excellent! I guess the 1975 series might be bit more difficult to find on iplayer - 1975 now there was a time!

btw I forgot to mention my usual caveat I've no connection with the seller but I think it might be easier reading.

Ken

Cheers Ken - I await my parcel with mid-1970's goggles.

Tim.