POW day ?

[piethrower]

Hi - I'm trying to find out anything about these photos. My grandfather, Reginald E Cripps is the profiled KOYLI but is this picture and the other two POW camp related ? Anythoughts will be hugely welcomed. BW - John.

[piethrower]

It's been a while since I posted the original photos - is there anyone perhaps who hasn't seen them and could offer any info/opinions on them ? I'd love to know if they are POW photos and anything else besides. Thanks a lot.

[centurion]

Some of the men's jackets and hats in the last photo have a very 1930s look to them. One of them looks very much in the mould of Jimmy Cagny

[piethrower]

All date from the 1910s and my guess is the plain uniform and productions/entertainment relate camp life. Any thoughts (bit of a dead-end so far) ?

[seaforths]

I wonder if this would get more attention if posted in the uniforms area of the forum. There are many knowledgeable people in that area that may have missed the photographs because of where it is posted. You haven't said whether your grandfather was captured and a POW or, is that what you are trying to find out?

[piethrower]

Good advice - I shall head over there. He was a POW. I'm assuming the photos all related to captivity but would love confirmation.

[Chris_Baker]

Piethrower, there may be a very important clue in the sleeve insignia of the British soldier standing with a clarinet at the rear of the second photo. It looks to me as though he has at least one "wound stripe", so the photo has to date from after when they were authorised. It is just too small to be completely sure. Are you able to blow that part up a little?

[seaforths]

Good advice - I shall head over there. He was a POW. I'm assuming the photos all related to captivity but would love confirmation.

Thanks for that piethrower. I came across an image last night of a POW international orchestra while looking for something else the picture was quite grainy but I will have another look later.

You could also try searching the POWs interviews; WO 161 at The National Archives (TNA). The files are searchable and downloadable from this link:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/prisoners-of-war-ww1.htm

You might find out from that whether he gave an interview that has survived.

[piethrower]

Thanks Chris/Seaforths - Your thoughts/advice are very much appreciated.

Chris - I hope I've presented the photo in the way you wanted.

Seaforths - Unfortunately haven't found granddad in the interviews and up to now my only war time (probable) records of him are these photos.

[seaforths]

The images I have seen of the international orchestras at POW camps were published in 1915 so it pre-dates the wound stripe introduced in 1916. However, that said, while it might date the photograph in terms of the Corporal being captured, your grandfather might have been captured before him therefore I did check the images but I didn't see him in any of them. The only thing I can suggest is trying to locate him in a newspaper archive for a paper that would have been local to him. He might turn up as reported missing or as a POW in German hands.

[piethrower]

Thanks again Seaforths - I found Grandad in the Times 9 months after capture (he was a wounded stretcher bearer and "old contemptible" taken at Mons). Otherwise not sure which papers to look at (he was 2nd bn KOYLI).

[seaforths]

Thanks again Seaforths - I found Grandad in the Times 9 months after capture (he was a wounded stretcher bearer and "old contemptible" taken at Mons). Otherwise not sure which papers to look at (he was 2nd bn KOYLI).

TNA POW interviews search is still useful. Try searching under King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. Scroll through the results and find out if there were any others captured at the same time that gave interviews - you might find something. Particularly useful if you can find an officer as they will sometimes identify the Germans responsible for their capture and from that information, the camp he went to can be narrowed down somewhat. Are you sure it wasn't Le Cateau?

[piethrower]

My Uncle said he was taken at Mons and moved to the town's bandstand with his comrades. My uncle made sure he visited the spot advancing through in WW2. I'll revisit the interview statements - another good tip. I'm hoping the Red cross POW records will have him included - finding it strange though that there seems little detail/publicity on their release .

[seaforths]

Repatriation will again appear in the newspapers. The War Office Casualty lists were published into March or April 1919 as there were still casualties being reported but in the main, they listed repatriations (I can't remember the exact date they stopped publishing the official lists) and other newspapers of course, published news on repatriations. I have a feeling the first casualty lists of the war were posted in The Times on 3 September 1914. He might have appeared as missing in an earlier list than the one you found months later. Many of those missing were actually posted as killed initially and they printed corrections later. The text recognition for searching newspapers isn't brilliant and often they will fail to pick up instances of names appearing. Unfortunately, that means a manual search which is time consuming and searching lists of those killed or wounded even when you know they weren't.

The release of the POW records next month should, I hope, answer a lot of questions and probably in doing so, raise many more.

[piethrower]

Thanks Seaforths - I reckon the newspaper route could be fruitful. From what I can gather the 2nd bn KOYLI's home town was Pontefract so will try to look at local titles.