GeoffLeese Posted 7 September , 2004 Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Hello everyone, my first post to this forum. I must admit that my main military interest is the British Army in WWII NW Europe, but I have an interest in WWI too. I visited a local cemetery at the weekend, and noticed a number of CWGC headstones there. Nothing unusual about that, I know from my frequent visits here. But i did notice a couple of things that I found unusual. Firstly, there were a number of headstones in CWGc style, but made from marble, rather than Portland? stone. Secondly, there was one headstone named to TWO men, who had died 25 years apart - one in 1917, one in 1942. They didn'thave the same surname. I'm sure that there'll be someone on here who can exlpain both of those things. thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 September , 2004 Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Geoff Welcome to the Forum. CWGC headstones are made of many different types of stone - not only Portland limestone. There is a thread on this subject currently running. See here... http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=19203&hl= The stone you saw (if it was a whitish colour) was probably Botticino limestone which looks like marble and is often used nowadays instead of Portland as it is harder wearing. War graves often contain more than one casualty but I have to confess that I have never seen two qualifying casualties from each of the world wars in one grave. I am assuming that this cemetery is in the UK and therefore the grave could well be a privately owned one with a CWGC headstone. In this case, one of the names buried there could NOT be an official war grave but a relative buried in the same grave - permissable in private graves in the home countries. In such cases, the second name can be inscribed on the CWGC stone at the n-o-k's expense. What were the names of the men concerned and where was the cemetery? If we have those details, we may be able to help further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 7 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Thanks Terry - well up to your usual standard in terms of clarity, helpfulness and above all speed. I've been and looked at the current thread on headstones, and found it most informative. The "marble" stones are a dark grey, almost granite colour, but seemed to have a smooth finish. I'll have a closer look. The cemetery in question is in Ford Green Road, Stoke on Trent. Unfortunately I didn't note the men's names, but I've to attend a funeral there on Thursday so I'll be sure to do that then, and post them here. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 September , 2004 Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Geoff The stone you mention is possibly granite. These have polished front and back surfaces with rough sides and top. The inscriptions are painted black. One is pictured in the other thread. Alternatively, they could be slate. Or were they like this one? (photo courtesy of Signals). I don't suppose you could get a picture of one at some stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 September , 2004 Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Geoff These are the two men and indeed they are both official War Graves. One from each war in the same grave. A picture would be great if circumstances allow. Now to find out why! Name: ESPLEY, JAMES Initials: J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Gunner Regiment: Royal Garrison Artillery Unit Text: No. 4 Coy. Age: 25 Date of Death: 02/05/1917 Service No: 34689 Additional information: Son of the late Robert and Rosina Espley. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: 1738. Cemetery: STOKE-ON-TRENT (SMALLTHORNE) CEMETERY Name: MOUNTFORD, THOMAS WILLIAM Initials: T W Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Gunner Regiment: Royal Artillery Unit Text: 364 Bty., 41 (5th Bn. The North Staffordshire Regt.) Searchlight Regt. Age: 26 Date of Death: 09/04/1942 Service No: 2086737 Additional information: Son of Simeon and Elisheba Mountford, of Smallthorne, Stoke-on-Trent. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Grave 1738. Cemetery: STOKE-ON-TRENT (SMALLTHORNE) CEMETERY They could still be related even though they have different surnames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 7 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Wow. Now that is impressive. The gravestones are definitely not slate - but they could be granite. I'll get some pictures on Thursday and post them up here. Espley and Mountford are both local names - that might help with the relationship idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 September , 2004 Share Posted 7 September , 2004 And both are artillerymen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 7 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2004 Yes, I noticed that too. Particularly poignant as we're burying my father-in law, an ex regular gunner, veteran of the Far East, Palestine and Malaya on Thursday. "Every rank from gunner to BSM and often back again" as he would have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 8 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 8 September , 2004 More news. It turns out that Gunner Mountford's sister is still living locally, and is a good friend of a friend's mother (herself an ATS girl whio served with the RA in WWII). I'm able to meet her next week, so perhaps she knows more of the story. I'll post the pictures of the headstones tomorrow evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 8 September , 2004 Share Posted 8 September , 2004 Geoff The pictures will be most welcome if you have the opportunity. During this discussion, I forgot to send my condolences for your family's loss. Apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 9 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2004 Thank you Terry, much appreciated. It'll come as no surprise, I'm sure, that in all the hullabaloo today the camera got forgotten. But I'll go up to the cemetery tomorrow to get photos. I spoke to Gladys (née Mountford) briefly today and she tells me that the two Gunners were uncle and nephew, and that there are two other family bodies (unmarked) in the grave too. I'll talk to her at greater length next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 10 September , 2004 Share Posted 10 September , 2004 Well, that explains the 'different names - one grave' problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 10 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2004 Here's the first picture - the espley/mountford stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 10 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2004 And the second - one of the granite? stones. They're all ( seven of them) like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 10 September , 2004 Share Posted 10 September , 2004 Geoff Thanks for taking the time to get both pics at a difficult time. The first is a first for me - two genuine war grave casualties from each war buried in the same grave - and related. The second is certainly granite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 11 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2004 I'm sorry if the pictures are a bit large - when I next post pictures I'l shrink them first. Could the headstone be unique? Has anyone ever seen a similar one? Just think, something unique in my home village of "Smowthun" (local pronunciation!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Afraid not. I have just checked my records and found that I have seen a similar example not far from where I am sitting. In Ditchling (St Margaret) Churchyard, Sussex the following will be found in the same grave - both official war graves. L/Cpl George Albert HARWOOD 2 Bn, Grenadier Guards Died 06.10.18 Pte Cecil John FAULKNER Pioneer Corps Died 07.02.46 I do not know if they are related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 11 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Oh well. It was a nice thought. You're obviously a most knowledgeable chap about cemeteries, the CWGC etc. I'm following the "headstone puzzler" on the other thread with great interest - I haven't a clue and look forward to your retirn from the pub! Could you have a go at answering a couple of questions please, not particularly WWI related, but to do with war graves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 September , 2004 Share Posted 11 September , 2004 Will try. What are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffLeese Posted 11 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2004 I've sent you a PM with the questions, so as not to add unnecesarily to the thread. Which I just have. Doh............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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