West Lancashire "Fighting 55th" gun question

[mtabbut]

I'm sorry if I'm not posting this in the right spot. I'm not really sure where to begin. My grandfather was in the "Fighting 55th" 1914-1918. He was a carter in the Liverpool area. During the war, he drove the horses that pulled the guns. I believe that is how my dad described it. I've always wondered what type of gun he might have been pulling around. We have one group picture that he is in that shows my grandfather along with 12 other soldiers. They are standing between some big wheels. Not sure if this is one gun or two guns? I can't see any of the gun in the picture, just what looks like a cranking wheel. Is there anywhere that I could post this picture for some of you to see? Can I post it where it says "Attach Files"? The picture is small and faded. It is in a frame, and I can't take it out of the frame as my dad made the frame himself when he was in school. My grandfather died in 1929. He had cancer. The family always said that it was connected to him being in the area hit with mustard gas. My dad always carried his father's discharge papers around with him. The papers were destroyed when my father was on a ship that was torpedoed during WWII. Thanks, Maureen

[Ian Riley]

Maureen,

Welcome to the Forum

I don't think that you can post an image until you have ten posts or something like that. If you grandfather was in from the start of the war it is likely he was in one of the Liverpool's Territorial Force Gunner Brigades and likely to have been driver with either 18 pounder team or a 4.5 inch howitzer. Not sure when the guns mentioned were issued and they may have started the war with 15 pounders.

Do we have a name and number? If we can identify his Medal Index Card this may give a date of going to France and Flanders or his personal record might survive (but unfortunately only 30% possibly made it through the WW2 blitz). The number would be on the edge of the medals if they are still in the possession of the family

Ian

[battiscombe]

as Ian said he was in 1st-2nd-3rd or 4th W Lancs Brigade RFA, later renamed 275th, 276th, 277th or 278th brigades.in may 1916. the artillery originally serving with 2nd Canadian Division before the 55th was reformed as a whole unit in Jan 1916.. previously having been dispersed.

you can find instructions on how to post an image.

He should have a medal card and if an original member probably went to France in Sept 1915, which should show on a medal card for the 1914-1915 star.. but could have joined them later, as a Driver, as ian said

[mtabbut]

Thanks for the replies. His name was Cornelius Duffy from Kirkdale, Liverpool. I posted a couple of pictures in the gallery, members photos. I'm not sure how to get back to the pictures, though.

I posted the group photo. Again, thanks for your help and info. I have something to look into now.

[Ian Riley]

I am turning up a Cornelius Duffy of the Royal Garrison Artillery and later the Royal Field Artillery. He is listed as a gunner (actually manning and operating the gun) rather than as a driver (responsible for the driving and management of their horse teams), No date of going to France or Flanders. Maybe a gunner expert can do something with these numbers. I notice TF written beside the Medal Roll reference; Territorial Force??

Ian

[mtabbut]

I am turning up a Cornelius Duffy of the Royal Garrison Artillery and later the Royal Field Artillery. He is listed as a gunner (actually manning and operating the gun) rather than as a driver (responsible for the driving and management of their horse teams), No date of going to France or Flanders. Maybe a gunner expert can do something with these numbers. I notice TF written beside the Medal Roll reference; Territorial Force??

Ian

Wow!! I have never seen anything like this before. My family always seems to be in the "missing" records, if you know what I mean. Very interesting to see this. I never expected anything to be found. I also wonder what the numbers mean,. Where does this come from? Thank you so much for your kindness. Maureen

[mtabbut]

The pictures that I posted are in the gallery, member's gallery. The group picture is there with the wheel of the gun visible. Title of album is Fighting 55th.

[Ian Riley]

The medal Index Card comes from the National Archive via Ancestry, It is for a Cornelius Duffy but there does appear to be only one with an Artillery connection except for a chap from Birkenhead who is a 'postal worker'. It might be a reasonable assumption that this is your grandfather, given that the name is fairly unusual) but not a cast-iron certainty. I am afraid that I have not had time to search the C Duffys (ie with just the intial)

The six figure numbers are the regimental numbers for the Royal Garrison Artillery (heavy guns - siege artillery) and the Royal Field Artillery (lighter guns 18 pounders and 4.5 inch howitzers)

The numbers below are the reference to the actual medal rolls themselves which may actually give a unit but I have no experience of Artillery Medal rolls. The fact that there is only entitlement to the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal implies that Cornelius Duffy did not serve abroad until after the start of 1916. It appears that a service record for Cornelius Duffy (the man in the medal index card) does NOT survive - but again only a fairly cursory search.

I am not an artillery expert and am unable to identify the gun in the photos in the Members Gallery except to say that the size makes it loo like field artillery and the wheel rims look rather thicker than most

Hopefully some one more expert than me will come along

Ian

[battiscombe]

I think that is one of the larger howitzers - looks much too large for an 18pdr/4.5"How. the second number confirms him as in 2nd W Lancs though -

680001-685000 276 BDE, RFA TF/ 1/2 W LANCS

680001-685000 286 BDE, RFA TF/ 2/2 W LANCS

originally in Lancs RGA

308001-310000 1 LANCASHIRE HY BY, RGA/ W LANCS DIV

308001-310000 2 LANCASHIRE HY BY, RGA/ W LANCS DIV

i would think an 8" Howtizer - various pics here

http://freepages.mil...h howitzer.html

http://farm2.staticf...e2dd0634b_z.jpg

[mtabbut]

Ian and Battiscombe, I can't thank the two of you enough. I knew next to nothing about my Grandfather's service. I don't know if he ever had the medals. Funny thing is that my dad never claimed his own medals from WWII until we helped him do in in the early 1990s.

I've looked up the pictures of the howitzer. Big gun indeed! I didn't even expect this much information. I'm not surprised that his service record didn't survive. That is typical of my family history.

Battiscombe, do you know what the difference is between the 55th & 57th? For some reason my dad said that his dad was in the 55th. Is the 2ndW Lancs the 57th? I'm not sure what the 2nd W Lancs means.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, Cornelius was originally in the Royal Garrison Artillery 1 or 2 Lancashire Heavy Battery (?) W. Lancashire Division. (55th 0r 57th?)

Then, they reorganized (1916 1917?) and he was then in the Royal Field Artillery Territorial Forces 276th Brigade 1st or 2nd W. Lancs or in the 286 Brigade, 2 W Lancs

Again, thank you so much to both of you for your help. Maureen

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Hi Mtabbut, from the picture it looks to me like the the 6 inch, 26 cwt towed howitzer?

This was one of the stalwarts of the Artillerty with over 6,600 built and firing over 20 Million shells. It was still in service at the beginning of the second world war.

The gun had 10 cew as standard.

If this is the gun then I believe that an example still exists at the Royal Artillery Museum in London.

[battiscombe]

yes.. maybe 6" rather than 8" Howitzer.. but I see 1/1 Lancs Heavy Bty was listed as using 60pdrs in Nov 1918 .... as was 2/1 Lancs..

see here for 60pdrs.. http://www.gommecour...apons.htm#Siege ..

but either way- while having originally been a 55th Div gunner, the heavy artillery batteries did not fight with the Division later in the war but - like all heavy artillery - were outside divisional control..

the 2nd West Lancs with these numbers relates to artillery - in this case the 2nd West Lancs artillery brigade (rather than 2nd W Lancs Division) .. based at Preston prewar, comprising 9th-10th-11th Batteries - this had at least 2 forms - the original 'first line' unit 1/2nd W lancs, which went overseas first .. and a second line [2/2 W Lancs] which remained for home service [although it later went overseas in 57th Div.. it gets complicated..].. first line units formed the 55th Div, second line the 57th I believe.

http://www.1914-1918.net/55div.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/57div.htm

in his case having an RGA number first might suggest he was with the Lancs Heavy Bde..

but as it says here this may be part of the answer

1/1st was in 55th and then 57th Divs........... 2/1st Lancashire Heavy Battery, RGA joined 57th Div 26 November 1915, received four 4.7-inch guns on 29 December 1915, later moved independently to France, arriving on 1 July 1916 and coming initially under orders of II Anzac Corps

the 1/2nd Lancashire Heavy Bty RGA was part of the 42nd (East Lancs) Division but went to Gallipoli.

[battiscombe]

further to previous messages - as those service numbers are unit-specific, one avenue of research would be to try and find surviving records of men with similar numbers who may well have had service histories very similar to your man - quite possibly in the same unit [this is in fact quite likely as the RGA units, especially, are quite small]

several in the early 308xxxs do not survive.. but .. a

John Henry Hamlet [308008] was Lancs RGA, enlisted 27/9/1915

Joseph Beggs [308001] was Lancs Heavy Bty [which one not listed], enlisted 11/5/1908 .. so presumably has another low prewar number .. and may have been one of few old soldiers still in unit when renumbered to the 308xxx sequence..

William Georgeson [308034] records do survive .. discharged from Lancs 2nd Reserve Brigade TF in 1918, previously served as number [222] in 1/2nd Lancashire Heavy Bty RGA, commanded by Major Winter - at East Grinstead 30/1/1915..

a Maurice Casey has similar RGA and RFA numbers..RGA [308624] as well as a RFA [681957] .. enlisted 6/8/1914

[Druid_Ian]

Looking at this image it would look like they are sat in front of a 60lb Gun

[mtabbut]

Thank you everyone for all of your help. I certainly came to the right place! I'm digesting all of the information that you've given me. The drawings and photos are amazing. I never knew my grandfather, so I really appreciate everything that I'm learning about what he possibly was involved in. What a great idea, Battiscombe to research similar men/numbers. Druid Ian, thank you for that illustration. What a complicated gun. I never realized that they had guns like this in the early 1900's. Kitchner's Bugle, thanks for that photograph! Very descriptive. I'm going to share this info with my cousins.

[wmfinch]

Hello Mtabut,

I am one of the descendants of a group of 12 men who won bravery awards for their actions on 30th November 1917. They kept two 4.5" Howitzers firing under intense pressure whilst serving with D/276 Battery, 55th West Lancashire Division. Interestingly, six of the twelve men, who were Territorials at the outbreak of war, were later reallocated new numbers ranging from No. 681770 to No. 681886. Your Grandfather's Number is very close to these.

V/R

Wayne Finch