German Regimental Markings

[Khaki]

17.I.D.10 with other stamps eg (crown over L) my research suggests Bavarian 17th Division, Divisional Command, (10, maybe company number?)

any thoughts?

khaki

[shippingsteel]

What's the marking found on.? The D could stand for Division but it is seldom seen, more so on earlier stuff. Crown over L will be Bavarian for Ludwig II or III.?

Cheers, S>S

[Jack Sheldon]

The problem with your theory, K, is that Bavarian divisions only went up to 16. Can we see a photo of the object in question, please?

Jack

[trenchtrotter]

Does the I appear as a J?

TT

[Khaki]

Thanks,

The markings are on a kar 88 ( manufactured 1890) turn down' paddle'style bolt,all matching numbers with sling, i purchased yesterday, sorry no image as the gun dealer cannot release it for another ten? days, something to do with a city ordinance on used goods etc. However the markings are as described and are very clear.and were verified at the time by one of the guys who works there.

khaki

ps just reread my original post, should show as 17.followed by a capital 'roman' with a bar at the top and bottom, sorry my typo

khaki

[Jack Sheldon]

I have had a look at this, thanks to the wonder of the internet. It looks as though you are describing a Bavarian proof mark, which helps to date the item in question.

Apparently:

Crown over L refers to King Kudwig II (1864 - 1886)

Crown over O refers to King Otto (1886-1913)

Crown over a stylised L refers to King Ludwig (1913-1918)

Apparently again at least one of the numbers refers to the date of manufacture and the 'D' appears to be confirmation that the proofed item is fully up to specification. This just about exhausts anything I know about the subject. I began with a search for 'German rifle proof markings'. You could try the same and see where you get. It does occur to me that there might be an issue with the date of manufacture you have been quoted. Let us hope that an expert comes along soon and puts us out of our misery.

Jack

[shippingsteel]

The markings are on a kar 88 ( manufactured 1890) turn down 'paddle' style bolt, all matching numbers ...

ps just reread my original post, should show as 17.followed by a capital 'roman' with a bar at the top and bottom, sorry my typo

OK so now we know what it's on we have a few more clues - knowing the weapon gives us more idea of time-frame ... circa 1890 means early and certainly pre-war.

Style of weapon tells us what kind of troops it may have been issued to - it is a Kar 88 (snub-nosed Cavalry Carbine) which provides us with context, context, context.

Given what we now know I would be looking for a mounted unit that was in existence in the 1890's which narrows it down to Kurassier, Ulanen, Husaren & Dragoner.

I think the D in the marking indicates one of the Dragoner Regiments (Mounted Infantry) so probably 1. Großherzoglich Mecklenburgisches Dragoner-Regt Nr. 17

And with the early marking regulations more use was made of the Roman numerals which would alternate with the normal numbers to indicate the particular sub-unit.

So the marking above being 17.I.D.10 could perhaps translate as the 17th Dragoner-Regiment (1st Eskadron) Waffe 10 ... (with an unrelated issue/inspection mark)

Cheers, S>S

[Khaki]

Thanks,

Great research

khaki

[Jack Sheldon]

SS

As I have said before, I do not know enough about this subject to suggest a good solution but, nevertheless, I doubt your reading of the abbreviation. For a start 'Crown over L' seems to indicate Bavaria, so I am not sure why a regiment from Mecklenburg would have been issued with that item. Secondly, the full abbreviation for the sub-unit you have suggested would be written like this:

1. Esk. Drag.-R. 17

Conceivably the 1.Esk. could follow the regiment but, either way, I find it difficult to match the letter and number combinations we have been given to your suggestion. However, as I say, I cannot come up with anything better.

Jack

[shippingsteel]

As I have said before, I do not know enough about this subject to suggest a good solution but, nevertheless, I doubt your reading of the abbreviation.

For a start 'Crown over L' seems to indicate Bavaria, so I am not sure why a regiment from Mecklenburg would have been issued with that item.

I don't really wish to argue the point with you Jack ... we can only provide suggestions based on our own particular experience, skill-set and level of knowledge.

This can be a surprisingly complex area made all the more difficult in this case by a lack of photos and no physical evidence. We have incomplete information.!

But I will make a few points here which I have based my above suggestion on. For starters I believe the supposed Bavarian link is the proverbial "red herring".

1. There is no proof the Crown/L is a Bavarian issue mark, it is much more likely to be an inspection mark, which were also Crowned letters called "frakturs".
   
2. The rifle is noted as manufactured in 1890. The correct issue mark of that year, assuming it is a Bavarian weapon would have been the Crown/O for Otto.
   
3. The weapon is a Kar 88 cavalry carbine which was adopted by Prussia, Saxony & Wurttemberg in 1890. But Bavaria did not adopt them until later in 1891.
   
4. The standard issue of the Kar 88 was to the mounted units - dragoons, hussars, cuirassiers and lancers. The marking regulations show D is for Dragoners.
   
5. To my knowledge the state of Bavaria did not field any mounted Dragoner-Regiments. Also the Bavarian regimental abbreviations usually begin with the B.
   
6. The regimental number is always the first shown in the abbreviation, with the letter/s indicating the type of regiment. So in this case the 17th Dragoners ...
   

I do agree the order of the markings in this case appears to be incorrect ie. not make sense, however it is not unknown for odd markings to be found "against regs"

Let us wait for the close-up photos to arrive, which will certainly help provide some more clues, and may even help sort out some of these other issues outstanding.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here are a couple of examples of period markings (unit abbreviations) that can be found stamped on the Kar 88 carbines.

15th Husaren, 2nd Eskadron, Waffe 41 [Husaren-Regt. Königin Wilhelmena der Niederlande (Hannoversches) Nr.15]

Bayern 4th Chevaulegers, 2nd Eskadron, Waffe 55 [Kgl. Bayer. 4. Chevaulegers-Regt. König]

Cheers, S>S

[Jack Sheldon]

SS

I do agree; this is certainly nothing to do with an argument, just a seeking for accuracy, because I am interested in the outcome myself. I slightly suspect that if somebody can take us through the type of stamps applied at the proofing stage to this item, we may start to understand the meaning a little better. Do you thnk that they may be falsified? Looking at some of the sites which cover this sort of material, there are suggestions that up to half of all items of this type traded may be forgeries.

Jacki

[shippingsteel]

Here is a little more on this ... the photo shows an example of the wartime Bavarian issue mark for Ludwig III on a bayonet issued in 1917.

Note the lower mark which is somewhat similar. This is the Crowned letter inspection mark in Gothic script commonly known as a "fraktur".

Cheers, S>S