MikeS0000 Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Hello Folks - Picked up a German M1895 Hebel Style Very Pistol at an auction today. When I picked it up at the end, it is pretty standard except for a marking on the right side I think may be Polish. Attached is a photo, but it isn't very good. The German marks are in place, but this marking is: "KPr.JK." Possibly there are periods between the other letters, but hard to tell. Looked like Polish notation to me. Any thoughts? Thanks for looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Königliche Pionier-Infanterie-Kompagnie .... followed by a number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Königlich Pionier Preußische-Infanterie-KompagnieKompanie .... followed by a number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 The markings don't look like Imperial German style to me ... but they could be from the post-war Reichswehr period which used many extended "block letter" markings. I don't know too much about that period or the markings themselves - just that they existed and they looked different to the GW markings (very similar to those shown) Here is a LINK which shows some of the variations that were possible just for the Police Units of that time. There were also other arms which used further combinations. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 I am sure that egbert's German translation of the marking is undoubtedly correct, and although I know nothing about German translations, I assume it translates into the English " The Prussian King's Infantry Regiment No.... ". If this is correct ? I think the last Prussian King was also the German Kaiser Wilhelm II, who abdicated on 18 November, 1918 at the end of WW1., and as there were no German or Prussian Kaisers or Kings after 18 November, 1918, the marking on the pistol appears to be German and dates from before the end of WW1. Hopefully, someone with much better German credentials will confirm ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Well I am not so sure anymore. Having looked twice, is this an "n" or an "r". I read an "r" but maybe Mick has a better view and reads "n"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Well I am not so sure anymore. Having looked twice, is this an "n" or an "r". I read an "r" but maybe Mick has a better view and reads "n"?? Either way, be it Preußische or Pionier, the agreement seems to be first letter ' K ' is for Königlich ' King ' and if so, the same dating period of prior to the end of WW1 would apply, and the marking is German. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 I would love to see another picture with etchings better visible to include manufacturer seal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 24 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Hi Gents! Thanks very much for your feedback. I'm' kind of with SS on this one. If it is German, even post-war, it is a very strange font and format. I have owned several Austro-Hungarian rifles used post-war by the Poles and they have a lot of the "Wr" "Wn" and that kind of format in their markings. But posted over on another more Polish leaning forum and nothing yet. I'll try to get some better pics today. We actually have some sun for the first time in a week and a half!! The markings after the JK are the usual Imperial Crowned B and Prussian Eagle. Best regards! - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 24 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2013 Overall pic..., isn't amazing what a little sun will do. Closeup...., and r or an n? I'm voting r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 FWIW - I think N. I think I can see the foot of the n. See below with an attempt to show the missing line on the right side, one large blob of corrosion interrupts the right "leg" of the n. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 March , 2013 Share Posted 24 March , 2013 The 2 proof marks to the right of the letters are both German. The Eagle and Crown was the German ' first preliminary ' proof mark and was used from 1891. The " Crown/B " was the German ' definitive ' proof mark applied to firearms in a finished state, and was again used from 1891. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 March , 2013 Share Posted 25 March , 2013 FWIW - I think N. I think I can see the foot of the n. See below with an attempt to show the missing line on the right side, one large blob of corrosion interrupts the right "leg" of the n. Good detective work Chris & nice illustration - but I think the 'foot' part may be the 'period' in between the letters, see the other corresponding marks. Very unusual to see that kind of period used, usually it would be just a full stop. So that would make the marking K.Pr.J.K ... now what does it mean.? I have never seen or heard of Koniglich being used in unit abbreviations on Imperial German weaponry - the Block style font used is definitely a clue. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 March , 2013 Share Posted 25 March , 2013 Mike, My research shows that the use of the prefix " Koniglich " was the standard format for German WW1 regimental titles, and I found many such examples of the Koniglich prefix being used as such, and far too many to mention. Listed is but one example taken from a German source, along with the book cover for the publication listing the fallen from that particular regiment during WW1. Given that the " Koniglich " prefix was standardly used, it makes sense that their regimental equipment was also formally marked with the " K " for Koniglich prefix, and whilst it is important for you to know if your flare pistol was issued to a German Preussisches ( Pr ) regiment or a German Pionier ( Pn ) regiment, the key to dating the flare pistol, is probably the " K ", which looks to stand for Koniglich, and if so, this would date the flare pistol as being before the end of WW1. Regards, LF Verlustliste: Koniglich Preussisches Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 213: Quelle: Koniglich Preussisches Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 213 Geschichte eines Flandernregiments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 March , 2013 Share Posted 25 March , 2013 I have never seen or heard of Koniglich being used in unit abbreviations on Imperial German weaponry ... While everyone knows the formal titles of the German Imperial regiments included the Koniglich title, whether it be Prussian, Saxon or Bavarian - that was taken as a given. The unit markings on weaponry was for their internal ID and Admin purposes. They knew they were a Prussian Infanterie-Regiment so didn't need it shown on the weapons. Here are some photos from my collection to show an example of the period marking format for Prussian weaponry in regard to unit identification and weapon administration. So in this case we have a S98 bayonet that was made at the Prussian arsenal (Erfurt) and issued with Prussian inspection (W/01) to the Prussian Infanterie-Regiment Nr.161 The full title of the regiment is the 10. Rheinisches Infanterie-Regt. Nr.161 (Düren, II Bn Eschweiler, III Bn Julich) IX Armee Korps but note the abbreviation is simply 161.R etc. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 25 March , 2013 Share Posted 25 March , 2013 Mike, Here is a very nice German WW1 photograph of members of Nachrichtenabteilung Infanterie-Regiment Nr.170. You will notice that at the back are two soldiers holding the M1895 Hebel Leuchtpistole ( Very Flare Pistol ). Given the drastic shortages of men and equipment experienced by all sides during WW1, I am sure your Leuchtpistole was pressed into service and saw service with the German Army during WW1. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 All post WWI wpns I have seen taken into Polish service without exception have the Polish eagle, so whatever the origin and use, it is not Polish. Not much help on your German id efforts though sorry. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 April , 2013 Share Posted 1 April , 2013 I have been able to do some further research into these strange German markings, and it appears that we were ALL "on the right track" to a certain extent. It seems that these are commonly referred to by collectors as "Police markings" and they can be official Weimar or Imperial period, but certainly not Military. These markings are mostly found on the inter-war German Police pistols (I knew I had seen them before) & on some Imperial 'government department' arms. For example the Imperial markings can be found associated with the Customs Department, and in this case the K.Pr. does indicate Koniglich Preussische etc. A comprehensive book has been published on these markings by Donald Maus entitled "History Writ in Steel - German Police Markings 1900-1936" see HERE From my searching on the web I have identified a couple of possibilities for the K.Pr section but the remainder is still unknown - the J.K. will need some work.! If it was an Imperial marking then it would most likely refer to the K.oniglich Pr.eussische J.K. (some official government department that would use flares.??) However if it was a later Weimar period Police marking it could stand for the K.riminalpolizei Pr.aesidium etc. The former is more likely but what can it mean.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestonboxer Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 I have a flare pistol very similar to this one exept mine is a real battlefield relic no woodwork on it at all , mine has a marking of PERKUN on it i believe this was a polish company , i actually got mine from Poland from a relative of my wife , hope this helps in some way i will post a photo at somepoint its as i say a relic but i love it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 I have a flare pistol very similar to this one exept mine is a real battlefield relic no woodwork on it at all , mine has a marking of PERKUN on it i believe this was a polish company , i actually got mine from Poland from a relative of my wife , hope this helps in some way i will post a photo at somepoint its as i say a relic but i love it . I look forward to seeing your Polish Flare Pistol, which is probably post WW1. PERKUN were a Polish arms manufacturer who not only made your Flare Pistol, but also made bayonets etc. Unlike Mike's German WW1 Flare Pistol, your's is Polish. Attached are photographs of a 1924 Polish made PERKUN Flare Pistol, which perhaps, is the same as your's. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestonboxer Posted 5 April , 2013 Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Wow a first for me seeing the complete item a really nice looking piece , since i have had mine it has been sitting in my display cabinet without really looking in to it to much , im happy to be able to see the complete item will try and get picture on tonight or tommorow , i cant locate a date on mine though wouldnt think it has worn off because the makers mark is still clearly visible . many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 5 April , 2013 Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Wow a first for me seeing the complete item a really nice looking piece , since i have had mine it has been sitting in my display cabinet without really looking in to it to much , im happy to be able to see the complete item will try and get picture on tonight or tommorow , i cant locate a date on mine though wouldnt think it has worn off because the makers mark is still clearly visible . many thanks I am pleased the photos were of assistance, I also looked up the Polish name for your Flare Pistol, which is as follows :- ' Pistolet sygnalowy Perkun ' Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 5 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Hi Gents - Thanks so much to all for the info and great pics!! I am sure you are correct SS, but I just can't help comparing the character font to those on the Sg98 and then to the PERKUN very pistol, which by the way, is a beautiful example! By the by, I posted this over on the Gunboards Forum and a member posted that he has another example with the same markings and also one with jut JK. So it isn't a one-off piece. Regardless, it makes a fairly common example much more interesting. Best regards! - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestonboxer Posted 5 April , 2013 Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Ok my example of the polish flare gun by Perkun ...... be prepared for an example at the other end of the scale to the previous example shown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestonboxer Posted 5 April , 2013 Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Maybe this time ....... pistol2.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now