Can anyone date or place this photo?

[aDub]

I wonder if anyone can help? This photo is supposed to contain one of two relatives who would joined 2nd July 1874 34th Foot Regiment

Promoted to Sargent then , 30 May 1880 to Colour Sargent or (his son-in-law) who joined Royal Horse Artillery 1887

I assume that this was taken after conflict, with lilies for the lost? There appear to be round-topped buildings behind (North Africa? Although for some reason I thought it was taken S.A.)

They are quite a motley crew, the (officer) on the right looks like he's out of a 30's film set and carrying a whip - might he have been from a wagon team pulling supplies? - , while the chap in the sweater looks like one of Scott's men! The sword and cloth cap together look incongruous. "We're having a war, come as you are, bring a sword!". There appear to be a few Aussies(?), and it may be the chap on the left with the whip that puts me in mind of SA.

Some of those moustaches could take an eye out! Maybe they can help to date the photo?

Although there seems to be plenty of light, I'm guessing that it was a more recent photo as there is no blurring apart from the boy's collar. I'm therefore tending to think that it's not an earlier Boer war photo.

I think, comparing other photo's, that the guy 3rd from left (pipe & bottle) is my relation, making him 45 in 1914 - he joined RHA at 18. Would that be a horseshoe insignia on his sleeve? (not been able to confirm this has anything to do with the RHA)

I think that the chap in the centre may be wearing a Black Watch Jacket & Tam (from wiki "... 2nd Battalion which fought in Mesopotamia and Palestine" this may fit the houses in the background?)

If anyone could identify the uniforms and a plausible date, that would be great.

Kind regards

ADub

[Chris Henschke]

That looks very much like Table Mountain in the background. I would put it taken at Cape Town, and judging by the bandolier, about 1900 - ish.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd agree with SA as a location.

The chap in the centre is wearing a knitted bonnet: he also has shoulder chains and grenade collar dogs (in fact, several men have grenade collar dogs and one of the slouch hats standing on the right of the picture looks as if it might have Fusilier badge on the trun up. Not sure what that shows us as I'd assume shoulder chains (and the swords) suggest cavalry, but the grenade collar badges would suggest artillery, engineers or fusiliers.

At least two are wearing horse-shoe badges on the arm (farriers?).

I doubt it's a funeral shot: no black arm-bands and it looks somewhat light-hearted!

Lovely picture, though.

[centurion]

The Sword Hilts look very much like that established when there was a rationalisation in 1895 . The photo does have a very much turn of the 19th/20th century look

[Steven Broomfield]

Actually, shoulder chains, grenade collar dogs and cavalry-style swords may well be RHA. The grenade cap badge (corporal with splendid 'tache standing to the right of centre) may well be a red herring.

[centurion]

Actually, shoulder chains, grenade collar dogs and cavalry-style swords may well be RHA. The grenade cap badge (corporal with splendid 'tache standing to the right of centre) may well be a red herring.

According to Charles Ffoulkes Master of the Tower Armouries 1913 -38 Artillery OR had a sword (when carried) with a 3 bar hilt until 1925 and officers until 1934. The style of hilt in the photo is, as I said that which was rationalised for Infantry and RE in 1895.

[Jankers]

It looks a lot like Devil's Peak Mountain in Cape Town. Can't help with the date.

[aDub]

I have just been told that the picture has a note on the back "granddad Plamer" so that would be RHA

Wow, lots of info guys, thanks that is great.

When I saw the original photo (this is a scan sent to me), I had thought it was table mountain, but of course the shot is quite close and not a "postcard" image.

They certainly look a scruffy bunch, especially (if it's him) my grandfather!

[Jankers]

The darker peak is Devil's Peak Mountain, the slightly lighter part to the left is Table Mountain behind it and from an unfamiliar angle.

[aDub]

Hi guys,

I've spent way too long playing with google earth trying to establish the position of the image, I can line up the distant skyline, but getting the peaks to the right as well is tricky, I suppose having the correct focal length would help. If I get a good match, I'll post the coords if anyone is interested.

You have been no end of help, thank you all.

Kind regards

[FROGSMILE]

Definitely RHA. In particular two men are wearing the RA undress frock with 5-buttons and trefoil knot. The man with the shoulder chains has them fitted to the India pattern blue serge frock. All of those mentioned have the plain, universal grenade worn by the RA elements at that time. Several other men are wearing the 1899 pattern SD frock and some are in KD. The head dress variety on display together bespeak a date of around 1900-01 and it is especially interesting to see men on the flanks wearing what much later became known as stable belts, but which at that time often contained an integral leather purse, or pocket watch case (note watch chain on man at right). One man even wears a guernsey sweater, a garment issued to British and Colonial soldiers (especally in Africa) for far longer than many people realise. All-in-all a very evocative and interesting image.

[aDub]

Hi Frogsmile,

Many thanks for your input. It's fascinating having images like this, and trying to understand what was going on over a 100 years ago. I've since sent the photo to an 84yo Auntie who hadn't seen it before, she tells me that my relation (her uncle) is laying on the floor on the left. He died childless in 1953, but he and his wife brought up my grandmother, my mother in her early years and the auntie above. When I have more detail, I'll try to pull his army record to establish where he served.

I have a few questions if you don't mind?

Are all of the guys in the photo RHA?

If so, why are they dressed so differently?

Is there a reliable website where I can see the uniforms in colour? My poor efforts put the quy in the centre in the black watch, why would he be wearing a tam? (just celebrating being Scots?)

I assume that this is some sort of de-mob celebration, what are your views? I was surprised to see the child there.

I note that you spelt Fusiliers with a 'z' in your tag line, is there a reason behind that?

Kind regards and again thanks

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Frogsmile,

Many thanks for your input. It's fascinating having images like this, and trying to understand what was going on over a 100 years ago. I've since sent the photo to an 84yo Auntie who hadn't seen it before, she tells me that my relation (her uncle) is laying on the floor on the left. He died childless in 1953, but he and his wife brought up my grandmother, my mother in her early years and the auntie above. When I have more detail, I'll try to pull his army record to establish where he served.

I have a few questions if you don't mind?

Are all of the guys in the photo RHA?

If so, why are they dressed so differently?

Is there a reliable website where I can see the uniforms in colour? My poor efforts put the quy in the centre in the black watch, why would he be wearing a tam? (just celebrating being Scots?)

I assume that this is some sort of de-mob celebration, what are your views? I was surprised to see the child there.

I note that you spelt Fusiliers with a 'z' in your tag line, is there a reason behind that?

Kind regards and again thanks

I was glad to help. In answer to your questions:

1. It is not possible to say whether all the men are RHA, but certainly those with the collar badges (grenades) are, and there is a strong likelihood that the majority of the others are too. The presence of farriers (with horse shoe arm badge) and swords (one man with an 1888 pattern sword belt with snake buckle) are all strong circumstantial evidence.

2. The large variety of dress in one image is indeed unusual, but probably reflects men either, on or off-duty, who have gathered together in an impromptu way for the purposes of a photo, which at that time was quiet an event.

3. I have enclosed some pictures of RA uniforms in colour. The RHA full dress uniform had distinctive yellow frogging across the chest. The men in your photo are all in undress that is either, dark blue, or drab khaki (the majority the latter).

4. The knitted 'tam' is just one of a variety of civilian caps the men are wearing when off-duty (e.g. it was not permitted to smoke when on-duty), or simply to pose in a themed way for the photo. There is meant to be some sense of humour I think, as evinced by the presence of a bottle being mock poured in the seated row.

5. The occasion might well have been to celebrate something, but what exactly is open to speculation. I imagine that the child is from a local residence.

6. The spelling of Fuzileers with a 'z' reflects an early form of the spelling when the regiment was given that honorific early in the 18th C.

Afternote: The wearing of the grenade collar badge as a head dress badge was common at that time in the RA as the 'gun' badge had not yet been adopted.

[aDub]

Thank you!