Please Help - WW1 tunic comprised of wool that is two shades of khaki

[viking_raid]

Folks

I need youe help with this one. I recently purchased a British made BEF tunic from a fellow collector and there are a few oddities with it. I've been pouring over your CEF and BEF tunic section, but I'm still scratching my head a little on this tunic.

It is a WW1 British tunic. It has the correct 2 darts on the collar, and is also correct under the arm. It has what appears to be an original maker tag attached on the interior, and the thread, seams and material all appear to have the correct period age and patina. Although in a couple of places the thread is more of a shade of green than khaki, but still the thread and stitching appear to be the correct period and age.

What troubles me is the tunic both inside and out IS NOT the typical British brown khaki, but is more of a slight shade of green khaki, however, the underside of the pocket flaps, epaulettes and the interior strip of material on the inside which the buttons go through IS the typical British brown khaki ??? Ii short, the tunic is comprised of khaki material that is slightly two shades, but it appears that the brown material was only used in places that would not show. There also appears to be a stamp on the interior in two places that appears to say 'property of..' and the rest has been covered with black marker, along with an E-8-8 written in black marker on the interior. I am wondering of this is a genuine WW1 Brit tunic that was part of an film studio costume shop ? It really looks to be genuine in every way, but the slight colour shade and presence of blacked out stamps has me concerned.

To help you see the difference I've included pictures of it along side a typical British brown khaki straight collar tunic that I own.

Looking forward to responces from the experts.

Cheers

Jason

[o j kirby]

Hello,

My tunics are different shades varying from green to brownish. In fact, the brownish one has different colours under the pocket flaps, ranging from greenish to almost a sandy colour.

Owain.

[viking_raid]

What about the blacked out stamp ? I think it says "property of" witht he rest blacked out ?

[4thGordons]

I can't really add all that much - perhaps someone like Joe Sweeny would be able to?

Variations in dye colour seem relatively common between jackets but perhaps not so obvious within a single garment. I have some examples of WWII battledress uniforms and the Canadian ones are distinctly greener than UK produced ones.

The partially obliterated stamp, it might well be a theatrical costumer or movie studio costume department as you said. I have a couple of items with them on.

Chris

[Joe Sweeney]

Jason,

Don't worry your jacket is an original that appears to have been owned by a Costume or film company.

Use of non matching serge for facings-linings is very common.

The greenish color is also and in my experience (I seem to have accumalated about 40 jackets) seems to be actually a bit more common especially on earlier jackets.

Here is a comparson in the range that can be envoutered in "Drab". This all belonged to one man from the Gordon's.

Joe Sweeney

[4thGordons]

40 Joe? Blimey!

And I know I have said it before but that is a fantastic Gordons grouping.

Chris

[bill24chev]

Dying of textiles was/is as much an art as a science.

Cloth from different batches can have variations in shade even when produced by the same manufacturer. The Mod must have obtained cloth from many manufacturers with a strong possibility of considerable variation.

[Graham Stewart]

It may actually be a Volunteer Force pattern as mentioned in Army Council Instruction 2417(V.F. Order XXIII) of the 24th December 1916, regarding the clothing of Officers & Volunteers. I have the ACI on this computer, but am unable to upload it to this post despite using Image Resizer - it keeps coming up "Error - Image Upload Failed"????

[gordon92]

Jason,

Don't worry your jacket is an original that appears to have been owned by a Costume or film company.

Use of non matching serge for facings-linings is very common.

The greenish color is also and in my experience (I seem to have accumalated about 40 jackets) seems to be actually a bit more common especially on earlier jackets.

Here is a comparson in the range that can be envoutered in "Drab". This all belonged to one man from the Gordon's.

Joe Sweeney

Joe,

That is indeed a fantastic Gordons grouping. Do you have any bio info on the original owner?

Mike

[viking_raid]

Can anyone suggest a method or cleaner to gentlly remove the black ink and the costume stamp ?

Also, does anyone know the details on how and when ww1 brit tunics were sold off to costume compaines?

Would this tunic have been worn in service during ww1 and then returned to the QM at wars end, and later sold as surplus ???

Finally I am trying to date both tunics ? Can someone tell which pattern they are ?

Edited 20 March , 2013 by viking_raid

[Joe Sweeney]

Jason,

Both Jackets are pattern 8407/1915 (5-Jun-15) and could have been made anytime after that date.

There was a pattern change in 1917, 9739/1917 6-Nov-17, which issued instructions that SD jackets would from then on be all machine sewn. Both of yours still have quite a bit of hand finishing, This does not mean that they are before Nov 17 as it tok time for changes to take effect.

Whats good is that both are basically all white lined with white pockets in 17/18 greenish and khaki pockets started showing up so I think yours might tend to be made before Nov 17.

Joe Sweeney

[MURAT]

Hello

Another example of greenish SD jacket with 3 different shades .

Gérald

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