Mystery allied unit badge on POW, likely captured near Morlancourt 6 A

[Baz]

Hi, this is my first post and I'm wondering if the experts here may be able to ID the cloth badge in this linked montage.

Its the one at bottom right:

http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

An inverted triangle with three horizontal bands of colour.

I've been trawling the web for some time but no luck. I'm not even sure he is a Brit anymore.. American maybe?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

Baz

PS this is a truly impressive site I must say - well done to all

[scottmarchand]

Hi Baz,

It is a bit hard to see the image you have questions about, do you have an clean picture of the soldier in question vs. your tableau? He is not likely to be american from what I see there.

BTW - you have made magnificent use of OCD on your Flickr stream , fascinating studies.

[Staffsyeoman]

A complete punt - MFP shoulder title

[Baz]

Hi Scott, there is an uncropped image showing the POW in question which is linked just below the montage - the third image down.

If you click on it then the small magnifying glass top right and select "all sizes" you can download a huge version. You'll find It's still blurry though, but both versions are just clear enough to at least see its got three horizontal bands of colour with a thin dark edge.

Phil, British Army Military Foot Police is an interesting thought. Bean describes how there was an artillery ammo dump established for the great August offensive which was overrun by the Württembergers. He then mentions this dump was being guarded by some men of the 50th Division who ended up as POWs (described as "machine gunners" by the German source Bean quotes and "50th Division's artillery" in Bean's own identification). It would seem military police would be more likely serving as guards.

[Baz]

Maybe another clue as to the ID of the POW might be his unusual Brodie helmet. Note the close fitting band around the middle matches an unusual aluminium eg:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/82596826@N03/8547287183/in/photostream/

[Old Owl]

Baz,

You mention Machine Gunners so the horizontal shoulder title is most probably MGC. The inverted triangle looks like it is attached to the strap over his shoulder, so could be just some form of buckle!!??

Robert

[caladonia]

Hello there

I hope you don't mind a newbie offering an opinion!

In the Osprey book dealing with British WW1 battle insignia, it states that officers of the 18th Division wore inverted triangular patches in regimental colours on both sleeves. Unfortunatly none of the examples illustrated show the regiments of the 18th you mention in your picture captions, It also states that in 1918 this system of patches was replaced by coloured bands painted round the helmets, so perhaps this officer is "caught in no-man's land" between the two systems!

Hope this helps.

[Baz]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Caladonia that's a very good tip - indeed I was in the process of trying to track down the book you mentioned when I initially posted. Its sadly now OOP, but I finally got one yesterday via an Abe Books supplier in UK and I see what you mean.

Given what Chappell says, everything really points to this POW being an officer of 18th Division:

"They adopted a scheme of battle patches, which they were to wear for the rest of the war, in 1915"

" Officers of the 18th Div. were identified by triangular shoulder patches in regimental colours, other ranks wore rectangular patches..."

"The battle patches were painted on helmets...until 1918. At that stage coloured helmet bands were substituted..."

So in other words the triangular sleeve insignia and helmet band were concurrent in 1918.

The mention of the coloured helmet band above helps explain the band seen on the POWs helmet, in so far as it's more likely a concealing device - probably something as simple as an elastic band. I mean, this band is clearly not tricoloured like the shoulder patch, but rather subdued like the helmet finish.A concealing band would seem to be a prudent measure in the trenches anyway, as I'm sure a colourful helmet band contrasting above the dirt and sandbags of a parapet would otherwise make a tempting target down a Voigtlander & Sohn sniper scope!

Just a pity Chappel doesn't cover all the battalion patches in his lovely illustrations. At least we can rule out those he does show because the don't match the photo. Based on that, plus Bean's account, odds point to this officer being from the 8th East Surrey battalion, particularly given they were the main unit overrun by the Württembergers.

Interesting to note Chappell's remark about 18th Div, being rated "the best of all 30 New Army divisions by the men who served alongside it". Beans' account has the German rating them "a good average division" in the wake of Morlancourt. Sounds like great praise to me, given the Württembergers themselves were a bunch of extremely tough nuts by all accounts - eg rated "amongst the very best divisions" in the AEF history, and "their toughest opponents" by the Australians in Bean's book.

Perhaps even more interesting, the 8th East Sussex Battalion were the unit which famously dribbled inscribed footballs out into no man's land, on the Somme near Montauban on, 1 July 1916 - under the inspiration of Capt W.P. Nevill.

http://www.exploring..._july_1st_1916/

I guess we can assume this in turn is what inspired a scene in the film The Trench, starring Daniel Craig - something by coincidence I only watched for the first time the other day.

Anyway, weighing all the evidence up it seems quite plausible drakegoodman's POW photo could well show the unit flash Capt W.P. Nevill wore the day he died, something I'm not aware has ever been really established, has it?

As for the colours of that triangular patch, I've been searching for the specific "regimental colours" of East Surrey, but no luck so far. Nothing for example seems to surface on this site that I can see:

http://www.queensroy...t/ww1east.shtml

Baz

[Grovetown]

The mention of the coloured helmet band above helps explain the band seen on the POWs helmet, in so far as it's more likely a concealing device - probably something as simple as an elastic band. I mean, this band is clearly not tricoloured like the shoulder patch, but rather subdued like the helmet finish.A concealing band would seem to be a prudent measure in the trenches anyway, as I'm sure a colourful helmet band contrasting above the dirt and sandbags of a parapet would otherwise make a tempting target down a Voigtlander & Sohn sniper scope!

Nope: a coloured band meant a coloured band. Here's one to the Black Watch.

While it's green and conforms to your subdued theory, I've also seen them in red (21st Div) and yellow. Indeed, Regimentals is selling what I would judge to be a completely authentic one with a yellow band, attributed to the 48th Division.

And while Chappell overeggs it by making everyone look like they were decorated like Christmas trees (which was not as common - from contemporary images - as perceived; and then really only got a grip in 1917 and 1918), you shouldn't underestimate the brightness of some of these schemes.

Cheers,

GT.

[Baz]

Thanks GT, you've prompted me to take another closer look at the POW photo. At this blurry resolution its always tough, but the light upper edge of the band I was interpreting as light catching the edge of concealing rubber band or helmet cover band could just as easily be a match for a light tone of paint.

Indeed, the more I look the more I think maybe there's a middle darker tone on the helmet band and maybe a mid tone below it. The demarcations between the tones are so indistinct though especially the last one, all due to the resolution. But anyway the sequence of tones points to a match with the POW's shoulder patch - exactly as per Chappell's description of the patch colours being repeated on the helmet.

http://www.flickr.co...N03/8547287183/

Cheers

Baz

[Baz]

I've updated the flickr montage:

Just a stab in the dark with the battalion colours - grateful for any further help on this

BTW does anyone know what "EHN" stands for on the 58th Div's insgnia? I've googled high and low and come up with zip

[Grovetown]

It's ATN - a poor pun on 18 supposedly.

Cheers,

GT.

[Baz]

Thanks GT, I'd read of that too in Mike Chappell's excellent Osprey insignia book, originally cited in my photo note on the helmet band. I've since added another note on the ATN insignia - thanks for reminding me

What I'm really wondering is the 8th Surrey Batt.'s colours and what 58th Div.'s "EHN" stands for. A Latin acronym perhaps?

[Grovetown]

Where did you get the EHN from?

[Andrew Upton]

Where did you get the EHN from?

GT, click the second link Baz posted in post 11...

[Grovetown]

Thanks Andrew. I'd seen that - yet the helmet paint is new; and the graphic is Baz's own. I'm wondering what his original source for it is....

[Baz]

The source was cited on both versions of the montage GT - just move your mouse cursor onto the montage and a bunch of boxes will pop up all over the image, then move the cursor over the upper most box on the left, the ref is cited there on the 58th Div inignia.

(Mike Chappell's artwork in the ubiquitous Osprey Men-at-Arms 182, p.36)