FredJCarss Posted 5 September , 2004 Share Posted 5 September , 2004 Fifteen mysteries 7395 ARTHUR W PTE 21/06/1915 9324 BENNET A PTE 21/06/1915 7440 BENNETT R PTE 21/06/1915 2382 BRETT E PTE 21/06/1915 9638 BURNET A PTE 21/06/1915 6637 DEVLIN R PTE 21/06/1915 7529 FERGUSON T L/CPL 21/06/1915 2401 HENDERSON J PTE 21/06/1915 1185 KELLY P PTE 21/06/1915 8239 MCINTYRE J PTE 21/06/1915 8237 MCLEAN D PTE 21/06/1915 7366 MONTGOMERY J L/CPL 21/06/1915 9935 REGAN H PTE 21/06/1915 9582 ROBERTSON C A/SGT 21/06/1915 9204 WATTERS R PTE 21/06/1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 5 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2004 Sorry hit the wrong button and posted too soon! All these guys were listed as died. not died of wounds or KIA on the same day. One died as a POW in Germany (Why is he on this memorial?) These ones have long puzzled me. Any ideas Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Miller Posted 5 September , 2004 Share Posted 5 September , 2004 My knowledge of all the resources available is fairly scanty, so if you haven't done it already, the only way I could think of to answer your mystery is to go to the PRO and see if any of these soldiers has an intact set of Army Service Records. If you are successful, the full explanation of 'died' should be set before your eyes, as hospital visits and the reasons for them are usually detailed within. Beyond that, I am at a loss to suggest anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 5 September , 2004 Share Posted 5 September , 2004 A check of the battalion war diary will give you a pretty clear indication. My guess is that the "died" is an error. 21 June 1915, the Highland Division was at Givenchy, a notorious spot for mining. The battalion had attacked there only a few days before, with heavy losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Pattenden Posted 5 September , 2004 Share Posted 5 September , 2004 Fred, With regard to the POW, I remember reading/hearing somewhere that if a POW died and the location of his grave was lost, he was commemorated on the memorial closest to where he was captured. Hope this is of help, Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 September , 2004 Share Posted 5 September , 2004 Hugh That is absolutely correct and could explain the PoW name on this memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9th Black Watch Posted 5 September , 2004 Share Posted 5 September , 2004 It's a puzzle Fred. The way I read it the 1st Bn. were relieved on the 16 June by the 1st Northamptonshire Regt. The battalion marched to billets in Bethune. Wauchope mentions that 'a series of moves [were] made in the reserve area'. On the 19th Battalion at Lapugnoy, moving to Burbure on 23rd? Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 6 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2004 Jon Since I am in Scotland and the cost of pulling records is such that this will be a later course of action. Hugh & Terry Many thanks for the info re recording on nearest memorial - this is new to me. Chris I have also considered it may well be an error that Died should be Died of Wounds but before I change my records I always (where possible) like concret proof. The fog of war can be a real so and so after so long. Derek Like you I have looked at the diary and also Wauchopes's books and various other sources and found the same as you. Thanks to all who posted. Any further thoughts would be welcomed. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gordon Posted 6 September , 2004 Share Posted 6 September , 2004 Fred I don't think 1st Black Watch served with 51st (H) Division. They were in 1st. Brigade of 1st Division for the duration. Regards Jim Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 6 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2004 Spot on Jim. After the battle of Aubers Ridge on 9/5/15 the Bn was mostly in reserve building back up as on 10.5.15 the diary reads HINGES Battalion fighting strength. Officers 8. Other ranks 354. In Divisional Reserve. This apart from brief periods they were out of the line for a while. The battle of the 9th left 14 Officers and 461 O.R. killed or wounded and 153 of the O.R were posted missing. Its always possible that these guys were lost then but I would like to find concrete proof if possible. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bulloch Posted 6 September , 2004 Share Posted 6 September , 2004 Hello Fred and to the Forum. I was going through my Records of the Cameron Highlanders trying to look up a Sgt McLean a namesake of of one of the soldiers you listed 8237 Pte D McLean with the date 21/06/15 I came across a Pte G McLean with the same service number 8237 Pte G McLean with the date 18/11/17 served with the 1st Cameron Highlanders. would this be a typo by any chance. Cheers to the forum Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 6 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2004 Hi Rob An interesting comment! I have seen my man listed in a few locations so I am as sure as I can be that name and number on my side is ok. Very odd though that another McLean should have the same number, it must surely be a fluke. Perhaps someone in the forum knows better? Guess we should both watch this space Regards Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J Posted 23 January , 2020 Share Posted 23 January , 2020 9324 Pte A Bennet, Black Watch was my Great Grandfather so looking to see is i can find any more information about him and tracing his missing 2 medals. Regards Peter Johnston Ex Cpl R Signals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 23 January , 2020 Share Posted 23 January , 2020 Welcome Peter tell us what you know so we dont go over old ground which medal do you have then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 23 January , 2020 Share Posted 23 January , 2020 (edited) Andrew Bennet Pte 9324 died a POW He may have a ICRC record that can be searched for HERE Ray Edit whilst listed as died a POW on the WFA pension cards This may not be be 100% correct His ICRC document HERE indicates that He died - Disc ??????? found Burial place unknown What may have happened here is that his body was found and buried by the enemy on the battlefield his I.D disc removed and the details passed on to the ICRC Edited 23 January , 2020 by RaySearching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 23 January , 2020 Share Posted 23 January , 2020 To answer Fred's original query post one Fifteen mysteries 7395 ARTHUR W PTE 21/06/1915 9324 BENNET A PTE 21/06/1915 7440 BENNETT R PTE 21/06/1915 2382 BRETT E PTE 21/06/1915 9638 BURNET A PTE 21/06/1915 6637 DEVLIN R PTE 21/06/1915 7529 FERGUSON T L/CPL 21/06/1915 2401 HENDERSON J PTE 21/06/1915 1185 KELLY P PTE 21/06/1915 8239 MCINTYRE J PTE 21/06/1915 8237 MCLEAN D PTE 21/06/1915 7366 MONTGOMERY J L/CPL 21/06/1915 9935 REGAN H PTE 21/06/1915 9582 ROBERTSON C A/SGT 21/06/1915 9204 WATTERS R PTE 21/06/1915 On 05/09/2004 at 15:39, FredJCarss said: Sorry hit the wrong button and posted too soon! All these guys were listed as died. not died of wounds or KIA on the same day. One died as a POW in Germany (Why is he on this memorial?) These ones have long puzzled me. Any ideas Fred As can be seen on the following ICRC document a number of the Black Watch on the above list are recorded on the doc The tile Beerdigung unbekannt Google translate translates it as funeral unknown note the details on the entry,s on the following ICRC doc are taken from the soldiers Identity discs including their religion Which indicates that the soldiers on the ICRC list were most likely found dead on the battlefield and buried by the enemy The date of death 21/6/1915 being a nominal date not necessarily being the date the soldiers died just my opinion Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 27 January , 2020 Share Posted 27 January , 2020 (edited) Ray, I think you have it. These seem to be the date the German authorities sent notification of their being dead, not their actual date of death. The confusion over their deaths as PoW's probably stems from this. All these men look to have went missing in the late October and early November fighting. A number have had their date of death amended in their SER entries to the date they went missing, but not all. 7395 Arthur - reported missing in a late October newspaper article. 9324 Bennett - Newspaper article mentions his wife had not heard from him since 16th October, 1914. 7440 Bennett - no extra info. 2382 Brett - Reported missing in January 27th, 1915 official list. 9638 Burnet - SER, Missing Presumed Dead 1811/1914 6637 Devlin - SER, MIA 2610/1914. 7529 Ferguson - MIA 02/11/1914 2401 Henderson - SER, M.P.D. 14/09/1914. Also reported missing as of 16th October, 1914 in newspaper article. 1185 Kelly - newspaper article he was missing quite some time before notification of death in Germany in the June. 8239 McIntyre - SER, M.P.D. 31/10/1914 8237 McLean - SER, M.P.D. 29/10/1914 7366 Montgomery - SER, M.P.D. 31/10/1914 9935 Regan - no extra info. 9582 Robertson - SER, M.P.D. 31/10/1914 9204 Watters - SER, M.P.D. 26-29/10/1914. Also reported missing in February, 1915 newspaper. Cheers, Derek. Edited 27 January , 2020 by Derek Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J Posted 10 February , 2020 Share Posted 10 February , 2020 9324 PTE BENNET R H (BW) Hi Ray, Thanks for that information - great thanks The Black Watch Museum has his 14 star only which they received in the 1960's they also have a picture of him which we have never seen in the family - My mum his grandaughter has just seen the picture for the first time :). If you do find any more information that would be great. Regards Pete and Family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J Posted 10 February , 2020 Share Posted 10 February , 2020 Hi Ray, Where did you get details of the newspaper acticle from i would love to see please. Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 10 February , 2020 Share Posted 10 February , 2020 Pete see Post 17 on this thread The information that there is a newspaper article for Bennet was made in post 17 by Derek Black He may be able to assist with your query, I suggest you send him a personal message through the forum Derek may return to the forum and see the update on this thread and respond accordingly Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 (edited) On 10/02/2020 at 16:30, Pete J said: Hi Ray, Where did you get details of the newspaper acticle from i would love to see please. Regards Pete Hi Pete, That was lucky the museum had a photo of him for you. I'll send you an email. Cheers, Derek. Edited 12 February , 2020 by Derek Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 On 23/01/2020 at 18:01, RaySearching said: Andrew Bennet Pte 9324 died a POW He may have a ICRC record that can be searched for HERE Ray Edit whilst listed as died a POW on the WFA pension cards This may not be be 100% correct His ICRC document HERE indicates that He died - Disc ??????? found Burial place unknown What may have happened here is that his body was found and buried by the enemy on the battlefield his I.D disc removed and the details passed on to the ICRC Think it says "disc probably found" Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 Hi all, I just found this list of those who died 21 Jun 1915 - the most is from the Black Watch - all named as died in France - but i think the Black Watch was not there then - so what happened to all these soldiers from the Black Watch. I found out and confirm that 9324 Pte A Bennet - My great grandad went missing some time after mid Oct 1914 and was not reported by the Germans until 21 Jun 1915 along with the following all on the same day!!!!! Does any one have any idea? France: Pas de Calais LE TOURET MEMORIAL ________________________________________ 3/2283 Private JAMES ANDERSON 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 7395 Private ARTHUR 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 9324 Private ANDREW BENNET 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2382 Private EDWARD BRETT 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 9638 Private ANDREW BURNET 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 7873 Private ROBERT CAMPBELL 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 342 Serjeant DAVID CARR 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 276 Private JAMES CULBERT 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 8068 Private JOSEPH DEARDEN "B" Coy. 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 6637 Private ROBERT DEVLIN 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 110 Private ROBERT DICK 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2081 Private GEORGE EDGAR 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2059 Private JOHN FILKIN 1st/7th Bn. The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 2027 Private HARRY GEORGE GLENDAY 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 3/1635 Private DUNCAN GRUBB 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2401 Private JOHN HENDERSON 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 11 Private JOHN HUNTER 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2605 Private ALEXANDER HUTCHISON 6th Bn. Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) 1185 Private PHILIP KELLY 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 8239 Private JAMES McINTYRE 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 8237 Private DONALD McLEAN 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 7366 Lance Corporal MONTGOMERY ALIAS 7851 Private WALTER NEVISON 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 9935 Private HUGH REGAN 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 9582 Serjeant CHARLES ROBERTSON 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2562 Private ARTHUR SCOTT 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 7366 Lance Corporal JAMES SHELVEY 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 9905 Private ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 107 Lance Corporal WILLIAM TODD 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 2564 Private JAMES TROTTER 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 9204 Private WATTERS 1st Bn. Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Regards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 1 hour ago, Pete J said: Hi all, I just found this list of those who died 21 Jun 1915 - the most is from the Black Watch - all named as died in France - but i think the Black Watch was not there then - so what happened to all these soldiers from the Black Watch. Regards Pete Pete, They likely died in 1914 and their bodies were recovered by the Germans and buried at the time, having reomoved their identification tags. As Ray surmises the 1915 death dates accorded to them is likely a mistake/misunderstanding coming from the date of the notification of their deaths from the Germans. Cheers, Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 (edited) Pete, Your relative may have went missing during their support of strong post Kortekeer Cabaret on the 22-24 Oct, but i think more likely (as only three men were listed as missing during these days) that it was on the 29th of the month at the Gheluvelt crossroads when B company (his company), among others, were overwhelmed with very few returning to the battalion afterward. There's a rather grim account of the likely fate of many of the men of B company in a newspaper interview printed the month after events with a survivor of B Company. He says once they were overwhelmed the order was given to "cave in" and they threw down their rifles and put their hands up, but the Germans paid them no heed, and proceeded to bayonet the men. He made a run for it and was shot when far enough away not to receive the same treatment. Cheers, Derek. Edited 12 February , 2020 by Derek Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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