RN Victory Medal to 57 year old

[GavinH]

I have just started researching a Royal Navy Victory Medal that I have had for many years. It is named to:

120133 W. FRIEND CH.STO. R.N.

I found a copy of his service record in ADM/188 yesterday, and was very surprised to find that he had been born in 1861, and had joined the RN in 1882! He served until 1902, was pensioned, and then joined the Royal Fleet Reserve at Devonport. He was discharged in 1911 due to his age, but on 2nd August 1914, he was back serving with the RN as a Chief Stoker. He was finally demobbed in May 1919, just short of his 58th Birthday.

Was this a particularly rare occurance? Also, does anyone know if there is an easy way of finding out what his full medal entitlement was, other than going through each possible medal roll from 1882?

Thanks

Gavin

[DirtyDick]

It is unusual but not exceptional to find a sailor of that age qualifying for the Victory Medal (i.e. that he an operational part of a crew aboard a ship in a theatre of war). Most of those aged 50+ did not return to sea and received just the BWM for service in depots etc. in the UK.

However, he may have qualified for the VM early in the War (when he was in his early- to middle-fifties), or else have served ashore in France etc. in some administrative capacity with the Navy.

Does his ADM188 list where served during WW1?

You could search for his Continuous Service Certificate since this should list his medal entitlements; far better than ADM188s but these are elusive documents - I don't believe held at the PRO/NA - and I have only ever found a few.

Further, likely medals (excluding WW1 and LSGCs) for the Navy personal during the period 1882-1902 would include: Egypt Medal; East & West Africa Medal; QSA; China 1900.

You may wish to find appropriate qualifying lists for relevant ships/detachments of the Navy, comparing these to the ships and dates on his ADM188. Long job.

Richard

[RNCVR]

Gavin,

The best bet here is to check his pre war ships against the ship listing in Douglas Morris' 'Naval Medals' Volume1 & 2. It gives all of the ships & their medal entitlements.

This set is very expensive, & seems to be difficult to obtain now, so if you dont have a set, send me the names of his ships & the dates he served on them - (better still if you can scan the SR & send it might be better) I'll check for you.

I have a couple in my collection that saw active service after being recalled to service in 1914. I have trios to men over 50 when they earned them & their only medal entitlement also!

As Dick says, normally they served as instructors or in some other appointment at shore bases or depots, as most were too old to serve on an active ship in a theatre of war. The idea was they released younger men for active service, & their expertise would be used to train younger men in the depots & barracks etc. The same thing happened in WWII with naval pensioners. Normally they just qualified for the BWM, but some recd the Victory, bt they had to get on a 'active' ship to qualify for the Victory - a base or depot would not do it.

I have found tho (& no real hard evidence of this other than the medals I have) that if they were over about 55 yrs of age they were not recalled, but if around 50 they could be called up - think likely would have depended upon how badly their rate was needed in the RN at the time. Some would be recalled only to be medically discharged a month or so later.

Bryan

[GavinH]

Richard and Bryan,

Many thanks for your excellent replies. Both very interesting and useful. Although I have been researching WWI Medals to the army for a few years, I am still very much a beginner when it comes to Naval medals, and have only just started exploring ADM records. I was interested by the mention of Continuous Service Certificates. If one is likely to exist, have you any idea where I might find it? I did see a mention of WWI service records being in ADM/337. Do these show much more detail than the ADM/188 records?

Fortunately, I do have volume 2 of Douglas Morris' 'Naval Medals', which I bought relatively cheaply a few months ago. I'll try and work out a possible entitlement, and take it from there. The ships listed up to 1902 are;

Indus - 18/5/82 - 4/7/82

Rl Adelaide - 5/7/82 - 5/10/82

Indus - 6/10/82 - 1/11/82

Valorous - 2/11/82 - 22/2/86

Indus - 23/2/86 - 31/3/86

Himalaya - 1/4/86 - 30/9/89

Indus - 1/10/89 - 18/11/89

Pelican - 19/11/89 - 29/2/92

Bellerophon - 1/3/92 - 11/4/92

Vivid II - 12/4/92 - 10/10/92

Tamar - 11/10/92 - 31/12/94

Vivid II - 1/1/95 - 18/2/95

Cossack - 19/2/95 - 12/9/98

Vivid II - 13/9/98 - 21/6/01

Cambridge - 22/6/01 - 14/8/01

Vivid II - 15/8/01 - 6/12/01

Rainbow - 07/12/01 - 2/6/02

Vivid - 3/6/02 - 5/6/02

The ADM188 record does cover WWI, but unfortunatley this is the hardest part to read. I have a recently purchased copy of 'British Warships 1914-1919' by Dittmar & Colledge, and was intending a trawl through to see if I could match up the names. I'll try to post a scan of this part shortly.

Thanks again

Gavin

[GavinH]

A scan of the service record covering WWI is below. I can make out the following:

Vivid II - 2/8/14 - 9/10/14

" (....... ) - 10/10/14 - 15/5/17

Wallington ( " ) - 16/5/17 - 31/5/17

Albion (........) - 1/6/17 - 20/7/17

Vivid III - 21/7/17 - 10/9/17

Vivid II - 10/9/17 - 8/5/19

I believe Vivid was Devonport, but the names in the brackets are causing me problems. Any ideas?

[DirtyDick]

The Continuous Service Certificates contain details such as next of kin's address, and records in far greater detail information noted on ADM188s (and in this sense are more resemblant of Army papers); such as physical descriptions - up to age 28 years if joined prior to this; trade proficiency and examinations, and most importantly for you records the awards of medals etc.

Only come across the odd few languishing in naval archives alongside Submarine Service Cards etc., and many professional researchers do not appear to know or else have access to them - at least as far as I am aware - so if you do see them I'd love to know about it.

Richard

[GavinH]

Richard,

Thanks for your reply. After much squinting I think I've have made out one of the missing names as 'Traveller'. The second name could be the same, but I'm not sure. Dittmar & Colledge show the 'Traveller' was a Fleet Tug. It also states that it was used as a rescue tug from 1917, which would presumably have entitled the crew to a Victory Medal?

Regards

Gavin

[RNCVR]

Gavin,

I'll just give you the info on the WWI bases as you will have the rest of his ships medal entitlement from the Naval Medals book -

COSSACK qualified for the E & W Africa medal (Witu 1890) but he was one it after that. I had a quick look thru & it does not apear as if he qualified for any campaign medals prior to WWI.

VIVID II - Devonport Accounting base. Part of Devonport RN Barracks.

WALLINGTON -Auxiliary patrol base/depot ship at Immingham. Also a trawler, employed on boom defence duties 1915-1919

ALBION -Former Battleship, Accomodation ship Devonport '16 - '18.

VIVID III - Devonport Accounting section, Sept '17-Dec '18.

The 'ship' in the brackets looks like 'Trawlers' to me but it could well be Traveller.

I suspect he qualified for the BWM/VM pr whilst serving on Wallington. Men serving on trawlers & tugs usually qualified for the pair.

To get his exact medal entitlement you need to check the ADM 171/78-88 series - these are the WWI medal rolls for the RN etc.

As you will soon discover the penmanship on Naval SRs at times is virtually unreadable - I have several of these virtually indecipherable ships for the WWI period.

ADM 337 (according to the reference I have, & its a good one) contains WWI card index to RNVR officer's service records. It would be no use for men's SR's.

Dick - I have never heard of a "Continuous Service Certificates" for RN men in the PRO, & have never seen a copy of one of them & I have quite a few Naval medals & accompanying SR's - do these have an ADM number? Sounds like a good source of info - Where are they located?

Bryan

[DirtyDick]

Hi Bryan

Re. the CSCs.

They are around - I picked up one or two during my book research for submariners at the RNSM - but are few and far between in archives.

They are the 3-4 page long linen service documents given to ratings upon completing their service - my dad has the one (somewhere) he was given when he was commissioned in the Navy after 11-12 yrs as a rating.

I assume that since they were given to sailors upon discharge, presumably for employment purposes and proof of past service, they are in private hands or else on the market in much the same manner as medals etc. - and I have seen a few WW2 examples on ebay etc. - hence why they are not archived ( at least to my knowledge) at the PRO/NA in the same manner as ADM188s.

The only examples I have seen at archives are for men 'discharged dead', who obviously did not need them, but there may be some collector/collection somewhere.

Cheers

Richard

[RNCVR]

Thanks Richard - thats what I surmised you were referring to - I have some of these orriginal parchment Certificates of Service. They have a lot more details than those held in ADM 139 & 188. I knew that sailors carried them with them from ship to ship & base to base. The handed it in at the Ships office when they 'reported in', & picked it up when drafted. When the rating went to pension, or left the RN, this C of S went with him.

The service records in ADM 139 & 188 are basically pay records, recording their ships, engagements, conduct, GCB's, allowances (clothing, bedding etc) & gratuities, & also sometimes gallantry & distinguished service awards for WWI - anything the rating would be paid for.

I have one where his CGM & DSM are both noted & he would have recd a yearly gratuity for the CGM.

Its nice to get orriginal C of S & other documentation when obtaining a medal or group. If it was something I would not normally collect, if a medal or group has orriginal docs, I would likely purchase it for that reason if the price is right.

It is very unfortunate that the C of S (& other docs) gets tossed in the garbage & does not get sold with the medals when that time comes.

I have more submariners to tell you about this month - not as busy now its fall here.

Bryan

[RNCVR]

Here is an orriginal C of S from 1885. He joined in June 1885 & served continuously until May 1912.

Its a 4 page document on parchment. The entire inside 2 pages are his ships, conduct, ability, LS medal & gratuity recs, & Captains signature. The two I have from the WWI period are on linen.

Bryan

[GavinH]

Hello Bryan,

Thanks very much for the information on his WW1 Postings. You've saved me a lot of work.

Thanks also for the information on ADM/337 records. During my visit to the National Archives on Saturday, I picked up a couple of leaflets on Navy Records. Leaflet 5L, is entitled "How to find a RNVR Officer's and Rating's service record, 1914-1918". Admittedly, I missed the 'RNVR' part. However, the leaflet does say "The records for ratings in ADM 337 are arranged in service number order....".

I'm getting quite into this RN stuff now....!

Regards

Gavin

[RNCVR]

I have never had anything from ADM 337, it could be that some of those RNVR officers might have been wartime commissioned from the ranks. I am just going from the reference I have.

Bryan

[KONDOA]

My Great grandfather

Charles William McDonald born 1860 joined the RN as a boy sailor around 1874. He is listed in the 1881 census as being on the central turret timber clad HMS Iron Duke. He served throughout the First World War as a Petty Officer we believe on Minesweepers and recieved the 1914 star, Navy medal and the BM and Victory plus the silver badge. He was 54 in 1914 and died 1928. I have not yet been able to trace his Naval records.

[RNCVR]

Hi Drake,

I replied also to you in the "Uniform ID" thread.

His record should be in ADM 188. The survival rate of these records I believe is 100%, I know I have never had a problem obtaining an SR in this series.

Bryan

[Myrtle]

I have been reading this thread with interest as I am in the early stages of researching my two great uncles' WW1 service in the RN. Do you know if it is possible to research a man who did not leave the service until the 20s or is this information unavailable because of time restrictions ?

It is said that he was attending a torpedo course for submarine crew in China in the 20s and met with an accident which resulted in his having to leave the service.

Myrtle

[DirtyDick]

Hello

Service papers are available for all naval service up to 1929, when the records' system was changed. These papers (ADM188 for RN ratings) are available from the PRO/NA, and Navy papers did not suffer in The Blitz so all/almost all are available.

If they served after 1929 you will be able to get hold of their later service history from the MoD, but you have to state any close familial relationship with those concerned before they will release them (for a charge).

If one was a submariner, more service information might be available at the RN Submarine Museum in Gosport, Hants.

Richard

[Myrtle]

Richard

Thank you for your reply. I will pay a visit to the NA to check on ADM 188.

Regards

Myrtle