Earlier than WW1?

[anne.b.le]

Attached is another photo from the Welsh family collection. Is this uniform also pre-WW1?

Could it be the same man as in the previous photo?

Many thanks for any suggestions given.

Anne

[T8HANTS]

I'll start things off spurs and a whip do suggest Royal Artillery, either Horse or Field.

[Graham Stewart]

Ah sepia photography at it's best, which effects the actual colour of the uniform. I would say that you're probably looking at a Royal Engineer(Regular or Militia) - the uniform is scarlet, with dark blue facings, but the actual piping above and around the base of the collar, piping down the front of the jacket and the 'Austrian' knot on the sleeves are infact yellow. Unusually he's wearing spurs and carrying a horse whip, which indicates mounted duties.

Frogsmile posted a recent photo of an RE uniform here on the GWF. Dating is bit more difficult as I believe this mode of dress by the RE continued up to the Great War.

[FROGSMILE]

Attached is another photo from the Welsh family collection. Is this uniform also pre-WW1?

Could it be the same man as in the previous photo?

Many thanks for any suggestions given.

Anne

I think that he is a Royal Engineers 'Driver' (probably from a pontoon or bridging train) as evinced by the spurs, riding whip and 1885 patt sword belt and carriage (i.e. the white two slings linked by brass clips). The tunic appears to be scarlet as opposed to the dark blue of the Artillery and, although both Engineers and Artillery were authorised to wear a grenade as their collar badge, the engineer other ranks often did not do so after 1902 (the B&W image enclosed is pre 1902 and shows the collar grenade).

[anne.b.le]

That is fascinating that you can be so specific about what sort of soldier he was- thank you once more.

Frogsmile are you saying this photo is after 1902 as he doesn't have grenade badge on his colour as in the picture you posted? Also do you think this could be an earlier picture of my man from the SWB you kindly helped me with?

best wishes

Anne

[FROGSMILE]

That is fascinating that you can be so specific about what sort of soldier he was- thank you once more.

Frogsmile are you saying this photo is after 1902 as he doesn't have grenade badge on his colour as in the picture you posted? Also do you think this could be an earlier picture of my man from the SWB you kindly helped me with?

best wishes

Anne

Anne, yes I think that your photo is probably from after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War (1899-1902) and shows a Royal Engineer Driver. A key clue is that the collar and cuffs were of dark blue velvet and if you look the quality of the photo is so good that you can see that sheen. The Artillery did not have velvet.

It is very unlikely that he would have also been in the infantry, SWB, so I think it is a different man, perhaps a brother or cousin.

[anne.b.le]

Wonderful Frogsmile- now you have pointed out the feature about the collar and cuffs I can see the velvet too! It must have been a beautiful uniform- I assume this was a 'dress' uniform rather than what the soldier wore everyday?

Just a thought- who 'designed' uniforms at that time? Is it possible to see a real uniform like this still ?(I know IWM closed at the moment).

Many thanks also for your opinion about 'my' men being different. I'm also very glad that my postings have been of some use to you too.

best wishes

Anne

[FROGSMILE]

Wonderful Frogsmile- now you have pointed out the feature about the collar and cuffs I can see the velvet too! It must have been a beautiful uniform- I assume this was a 'dress' uniform rather than what the soldier wore everyday?

Just a thought- who 'designed' uniforms at that time? Is it possible to see a real uniform like this still ?(I know IWM closed at the moment).

Many thanks also for your opinion about 'my' men being different. I'm also very glad that my postings have been of some use to you too.

best wishes

Anne

Yes Anne, it was the dress uniform, known then and now in the Army as 'Full Dress', although sadly only the Foot Guards, Household Cavalry, and King's Troop RHA, still have that order of dress now. It was magnificent and expensive (the Treasury hated it - knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing) You can get a feel for its appearance from the colour images above.

I am unsure about the formal process of 'design' at that time, but it was based on historical precedence (i.e. long standing practice, such as the artillery wearing blue and the engineers scarlet, but their uniform features always being similar), Royal association (the monarchs had always played close attention and there was a degree of rivalry with other states with monarchies) and practicality (identification of function). There was also a complex relationship between the then enormous tailoring industry and the military. Large factories of jobbing tailors and seamstresses made uniforms for 'other ranks' (i.e. below officer) and high street tailors, who made suiting for the gentry and aristocracy, also made the uniforms for officers, who after all came from the same, upper sections of society. Finally, at the HQ of the Army, Horse Guards, there was a dress committee that in theory had to approve all items of dress uniform and which included a financier.

Above all, for the fighting elements of the Army (cavalry, artillery and infantry) there was a paternalistic system of 'Regimental Colonels', who were the titular heads and guardians of each regiment's traditions, and these men took a close and keen interest in the dress of their regiment.

You can see the uniforms at the Royal Engineers Museum at Gillingham, in Kent: http://www.re-museum.co.uk/

The soldiers clothing factory here: http://davidshistory...ng-factory.html

The tailors' guide to cutting and making officers uniforms here: http://thecostumersm...litary_Uniforms

And a brief overview of how important the old military tailors once were here: http://discover.giev...litary/uniforms

[anne.b.le]

Frogsmile- once again you have done a good job of educating me about army uniforms. I live very near Pimlico so that was especially interesting for me about the soldiers factory.

Thank you for all the time and effort you have spent helping me and good luck with your own research.

best wishes

Anne