Sleeve Insignia (over L/corp stripe)

[4thGordons]

Could someone identify this insignia for me please I am at a loss. It appears to be gilding metal/brass.

TIA

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Could someone identify this insignia for me please I am at a loss. It appears to be gilding metal/brass.

TIA

Chris

It is an LG within a laurel wreath and originally for Lewis Gun skill at arms proficiency. Later it was referred to as Light Gun so that it could be used for other types of gun of similar weight and purpose.

I enclose the cloth version.

[4thGordons]

Thanks Frogsmile.

I thought those sort of badges were worn on the lower sleeve? or were the rules different for the cloth versions? or am I misremembering?

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks Frogsmile.

I thought those sort of badges were worn on the lower sleeve? or were the rules different for the cloth versions? or am I misremembering?

Chris

NCOs wore them above their chevrons.

The same badge was issued in anodised finish from the 1960s (see enclosed), but by then they had fallen out of fashion, largely because of tailoring difficulties.

[Andrew Upton]

Thanks Frogsmile. I thought those sort of badges were worn on the lower sleeve? or were the rules different for the cloth versions? or am I misremembering? Chris

NCOs wore them above their chevrons. The same badge was issued in anodised finish from the 1960s (see enclosed), but by then they had fallen out of fashion, largely because of tailoring difficulties.

As written that is not correct, as illustrated well by the well known photo of Lance Corporal Jim Marshall of the MGC, where he can be seen clearly sporting his wreathed MG skill at arms badge in the usual position on the lower left arm (page 56):

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rxv9zVkXvMYC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=%22lance+corporal+jim+marshall%22&source=bl&ots=n8aE6pP3Ze&sig=_jmG82i5xzas-v_vBQUjbmxvuvQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m6YuUYOFKM3bsgbhm4GgCg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22lance%20corporal%20jim%20marshall%22&f=false

Wearing the relevant qualification or skill at arms badge above the rank chevrons on the right arm denoted the man as an Assistant Instructor in the relevant field. You sometimes see a soldier wearing them above the chevrons on both arms for a bit of added bling (though against the rules), and a little while ago a dealer on Ebay offered an original chevron which had had the badge actually mounted on the chevron itself.

[FROGSMILE]

As written that is not correct, as illustrated well by the well known photo of Lance Corporal Jim Marshall of the MGC, where he can be seen clearly sporting his wreathed MG skill at arms badge in the usual position on the lower left arm (page 56):

http://books.google....ll"&f=false

Wearing the relevant qualification or skill at arms badge above the rank chevrons on the right arm denoted the man as an Assistant Instructor in the relevant field. You sometimes see a soldier wearing them above the chevrons on both arms for a bit of added bling (though against the rules), and a little while ago a dealer on Ebay offered an original chevron which had had the badge actually mounted on the chevron itself.

Yes that was and still is correct, as I have mentioned in many other posts, but omitted to do in this one. Hopefully my answer was useful to the OP. The assistant instructor qualification aspect applies to all skill at arms badges when worn above the chevrons, having worn a good few in the real world myself.

[Muerrisch]

Yes that was and still is correct, as I have mentioned in many other posts, but omitted to do in this one. Hopefully my answer was useful to the OP. The assistant instructor qualification aspect applies to all skill at arms badges when worn above the chevrons, having worn a good few in the real world myself.

That sets me wondering: which S@A badges actually made it to the "appointment as asst instructor" position.

Starting the list is easy: the MG, LG and presumably HG. Also crossed flags, although not strictly S@A. Crossed rifles a special complicated case but yes. Crossed swords. Crossed guns RA. QI/wreath RE.

Many of the other 40 or so "trade" badges of the period do appear upper right, and, as necessary, above any ranking, but they don't seem to involve "instructing", rather simply "appointment". Here I am thinking of O/wreath, R/wreath, crossed lances S@A, , fleur de lys ........ The function of the badges is to say "here is an NCO appointed/ qualified thus".

Almost semantics on my part because there can be little distinction between, say a Sgt Scout's duties as NCO Scouts, and Instructing his men.

Interesting little byway. Certainly not simple, as the frequent and myriad detailed instructions over who could wear what and where testify.

[4thGordons]

Crossed rifles a special complicated case but yes. Crossed swords.

variations on a theme

so this is.... (left upper sleeve)

as opposed to

These two are from the same group of sgts: one high one low

and what is this? (low on forearm)

These are all Gordons btw, I am finally begining to catalogue my Gordons pics.

[dycer]

I doubt ,that, relying on period photographs alone will ever give a definitive answer,to this question, in the absence of the individual's service papers and even if they do survive they may not fully answer the conundrum.

For example,I have a pre-WW1 TF "staged" Camp photograph of my ancestor, as a Lance Corporal, "directing" a Maxim Gun Team. but with no "Laurel Leaf" qualification.

I also have a 1917? wartime leave photo, of him,as a Sgt.proudly displaying a "MG Laurel Leaf qualification insignia" above his chevrons.

His service papers have been destroyed so it is a matter of conjecture as to whether he ever attended a formal "gun course" ,thus passing out as an instructor,or as being "the last pre-War Battalion Machine Gun NCO standing" wore them as his right.Clearly, from my reading of the Battalion War Diary,excluding any bias I have,he, as the Battalion Lewis Gun Sergeant,received and complied with movement,etc Battalion Orders which arguably should have been directed to the Lewis Gun Section Officer.

Equally as a TA soldier,in the 1970's,who was designated a Company signaller,I attended a two week Signals Course,in Warminster.No formal "Badge" qualifications were issued at the end of the Course!

But,gossip spread around, among my "course mates" ,and I can remember seeking out and finding a "Crossed Flag Badge" which I sewed on my Jumper, below my Corporal's chevrons!

In fairness,the "Crossed Flags" proved handy especially when, as a Corporal, being expected to "view the land and lead a section, with minimum casualties,to the objective" ,on exercise!

George

p.s.should it assist, the debate,,I was classified as a marksman,on the SLR and could strip down and fire,service,etc, a GPMG.