Cap Badges on CWGC Gravestones

[margaretdufay]

Have tried to search the Forum to see if this subject has been done before, I thought it could be interesting to post pictures of the different Regiment badges, and then possible for people to give some information about the origin and so on.

Sorry forgot to say that this one was from the Seaforth Highlanders

mags

[margaretdufay]

Here is another one Royal Air Force 1918

[margaretdufay]

Have tried to search the Forum to see if this subject has been done before, I thought it could be interesting to post pictures of the different Regiment badges, and then possible for people to give some information about the origin and so on.

Sorry forgot to say that this one was from the Seaforth Highlanders

mags

Mackenzie of Kintail / Seaforth Highlanders Badge

Incorporating the original Mackenzie shield of a Stag's Head with the motto: "Cuidich 'N Righ" meaning "Help the King". The motto and stag's head come from the heroic rescue of King Alexander III by Colin MacCoinneach in 1263 who saved the king from a charging stag by shooting it dead with an arrow. For this deed and for his victory at the battle of Largs against the Danes in 1263, he was awarded the lands of Kintail, the free Barony of Kintail, the arms of a golden stag's head with a trickle of blood from between its eyes on a blue background and the right to be the hereditary Royal body guard (a tradition that was upheld until the battle of Pinkie in 154

This is info I found on the net about the Seaforth Highlanders Badge

Mags

[margaretdufay]

Here is another one Royal Air Force 1918

The badge of the Royal Air Force is the heraldic emblem used to represent the RAF which features an Albatross superimposed on a circlet which is surmounted by a crown.

The badge was based on a design by a tailor at Gieves Ltd of Savile Row. It was first used in August 1918 and the original circlet showed a garter and buckle. The present plain circlet dates from 26 January 1923 when the badge was registered at the College of Arms and, it being noted that the garter and buckle were heraldically incorrect, a substitution was made.^[1]

In heraldic terms it is: "In front of a circle inscribed with the motto Per Ardua Ad Astra and ensigned by the Imperial Crown an eagle volant and affronty Head lowered and to the sinister."^[2] Although there have been debates among airmen over the years whether the bird was originally meant to be an albatross or an eagle, the consensus is that it was always an eagle. ^[3

Info taken from Wikipedia, if you have any other info, please add to it.

mags

[WilliamRev]

Below is the CWGC version of the Royal Scots Fusiliers badge, and a WW1 glengarry/tam o shanter badge for comparison.

[i expect everyone knows this next bit.....

Fusilier regiments in the late 17th century carried the new flintlock fusil, which didn't need a glowing match, unlike the old matchlock, so they were used to guard/fight alongside the artillery which, having gunpowder, benefited from a lack of glowing matches in its close proximity. At any moment the fusiliers might be called upon to quickly sling their fusils over their shoulder to free their hands to help man-handle the guns through mud etc,. To facilitate this, rather than wear the tall headgear worn by normal infantry, they adopted the stocking caps also worn by grenadiers (who had to sling their muskets rapidly to free their hands to throw grenades). Uniformed as grenadiers, the fusilier regiments all proudly adopted the grenadiers grenade in their cap badges.]

The Royal Scots Fusiliers badge, with its' Royal crest within a flaming grenade, has always seemed to me one of the best-designed badges of any British regiment when used on headgear, and the CWGC version is fairly successful, although at a distance the gravestones can easily be confused with the Grenadier Guards and several other fusilier regiments. Its main failure, to my mind, is that it has nothing especially Scottish about it.

William

[depaor01]

[i expect everyone knows this next bit.....

I didn't!

Interesting stuff.

[bill24chev]

[i expect everyone knows this next bit.....

I didn't!

Interesting stuff.

I also leaerned why Fusilier regiments have the Flaming Grenade

[FROGSMILE]

Below is the CWGC version of the Royal Scots Fusiliers badge, and a WW1 glengarry/tam o shanter badge for comparison.

The Royal Scots Fusiliers badge, with its' Royal crest within a flaming grenade, has always seemed to me one of the best-designed badges of any British regiment when used on headgear, and the CWGC version is fairly successful, although at a distance the gravestones can easily be confused with the Grenadier Guards and several other fusilier regiments.

Its main failure, to my mind, is that it has nothing especially Scottish about it.

William

An intriguing point William, with an interesting rationale behind it.

The RSF had, in common with all the fusilier regiments, been more 'fusiliers' than Nationalistic 'Scots', in terms of their historical dress. Until 1881, and the Cardwell/Childers reforms they had, like all the Lowland regiments, no Scottish dress beyond insignia such as thistles, etc. and were dressed as English line.

For many years they had been known as the Royal North British Fusiliers and had even, alone among the Lowland regiments, actively resisted the adoption of tartan and doublets when these were ordered by Cardwell, perhaps because with the exception of head wear, it modified their dress to be unlike the fusilier grouping to which they belonged. Indeed, when you look at their full dress it does look something of a mish mash to the purist.

[gordon92]

An intriguing point William, with an interesting rationale behind it.

The RSF had, in common with all the fusilier regiments, been more 'fusiliers' than Nationalistic 'Scots', in terms of their historical dress. Until 1881, and the Cardwell/Childers reforms they had, like all the Lowland regiments, no Scottish dress beyond insignia such as thistles, etc. and were dressed as English line.

For many years they had been known as the Royal North British Fusiliers and had even, alone among the Lowland regiments, actively resisted the adoption of tartan and doublets when these were ordered by Cardwell, perhaps because with the exception of head wear, it modified their dress to be unlike the fusilier grouping to which they belonged. Indeed, when you look at their full dress it does look something of a mish mash to the purist.

The Royal Scots also showed an indifference to their national origin in the pre-1881 period. One officer was said to have remarked about the new uniform in 1881 that it constituted "this strange form of Scottish dress."

In contrast, the King's Own Borderers enthusiastically endorsed the return to their Scottish roots.

[Chester837]

Is it just me but the 2 Cpl's in battle dress on the left of the above photo: is there something painted on their Brodies? If you zoom in, there appears to be a lighter semi circular shape with faint marking in it. I'm fairly certain it's not reflection.

[squirrel]

Regimental badge?

[WilliamRev]

The RSF had, in common with all the fusilier regiments, been more 'fusiliers' than Nationalistic 'Scots', in terms of their historical dress. Until 1881, and the Cardwell/Childers reforms they had, like all the Lowland regiments, no Scottish dress beyond insignia such as thistles, etc. and were dressed as English line.

Yes, that's very true, and hadn't really occurred to me except that I have often thought that the Royal Scots Fusiliers were perhaps the least "Scottish" of all the Scottish regiments. Whilst they always had a pipe-major to play in the officers mess, at various times they had brass bands instead of pipes and drums. The two regular battalions recruited at least a third of their men from England, many from London and the South Coast, and loads of their officers had home addresses in London (although many of these have Scottish surnames).

Below is the CWGC badge and the glengarry badge from the Cameronians. The 2nd Battalion, originally the Perthshire Volunteers, later the Perthshire Light Infantry, insisted on their own Light Infantry badge on headgear, but shared the CWGC gravestone design.The 1st Battalion insisted on being called the Cameronians. The 5th Battalion were always called "Fifth Scottish Rifles", but this may be because they were brigaded with the 1st battalion.

The badge looks as though it was designed by a committee! The star is the heraldic Mullet from the crest of the Douglas Clan, with the Perthshire Light Infantry's bugle at the bottom. Nevertheless, I rather like it, weird mish-mash though it is.

William

[margaretdufay]

I also leaerned why Fusilier regiments have the Flaming Grenade

Me too.

[Muerrisch]

I have a nearly complete set of regular line infantry cap and shoulder badges, including wartime changes.

If demand exists I will post sets of three in order of precedence over a few days.

[bill24chev]

I have a nearly complete set of regular line infantry cap and shoulder badges, including wartime changes.

If demand exists I will post sets of three in order of precedence over a few days.

I have a nearly complete set of regular line infantry cap and shoulder badges, including wartime changes.

If demand exists I will post sets of three in order of precedence over a few days.

Please Do

[Guest]

I have a nearly complete set of regular line infantry cap and shoulder badges, including wartime changes.

If demand exists I will post sets of three in order of precedence over a few days.

Am sure demand exists. Which ones are you missing? If I ever find any, they're yours. I don't collect.

Mike

[Muerrisch]

experiment

I don't want to hijack this thread so will start a new one "Cap badges and Shoulder titles 1914-18 Regular Line Infantry"

[margaretdufay]

I think it is really interesting to see the real badges compared to the ones that we find on the gravestones, interesting info all round.

mags

[squirrel]

One thing to bear in mind regarding the badges, devices and mottoes inscribed on headstones, is the material itself.

Quite different stamping something out in a malleable metal than inscribing same on headstone - you just cannot get the fine detail in stone although the CWGC stonemasons do a very good job. Also IIRC the Services Corps and Regiments had a say on how their "badges" would be depicted.