133.R Posted 5 February , 2013 Share Posted 5 February , 2013 Hello, i got a Brodie helmet today ( War Office Pattern ) complete with liner . The outside of shell is painted with a rough apple green / brown sand colour. Manufacturer of the helmet is James Dixon and Sons 06. Between the shell and liner is a handwritten number 13598. Which soldier could have owned this number ? Kind regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 5 February , 2013 Share Posted 5 February , 2013 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1 here are 15 men with that service number on CWGC alone. No doubt there are plenty more without something else to go on? Regards, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 5 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2013 Thanks for the fast answer. There are initials J E in to the rim .....the helmet could be worn by JONES, HERBERT FRANCIS EDWARD Corporal 13598 23 Royal Berkshire Regiment . Kind regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 5 February , 2013 Share Posted 5 February , 2013 Would the initials not be H J in that case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 6 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2013 I think Jones was his first and Edward his last name. So it would fit. Another soldier with this service number and initials J E is not to found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 6 February , 2013 Share Posted 6 February , 2013 No- as listed on the CWGC site the last name (surname) is listed first. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 7 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2013 We will never know what the initials of its first soldier wrote. Jones Edward....... Edward Jones. In fact he is the only one with this service number and initials.......and I think we ´ve found the owner of this scarce helmet.I´m very happy to have this helmet in my collection and the helmet got a name. Kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 7 February , 2013 Share Posted 7 February , 2013 Well-if you want to think that.. I've never known anyone initial something with their last name initial first. Also- why are you so sure the helmet belonged to a man KIA- when many more men with that number would have not been killed? Being from Berkshire myself, I would love to own a Berkshire related helmet- but I see no reason to be sure that is what you have. Regards, Paul.- PW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark88 Posted 7 February , 2013 Share Posted 7 February , 2013 Well-if you want to think that.. I've never known anyone initial something with their last name initial first. Also- why are you so sure the helmet belonged to a man KIA- when many more men with that number would have not been killed? Being from Berkshire myself, I would love to own a Berkshire related helmet- but I see no reason to be sure that is what you have. Regards, Paul.- PW Sven - don't really like to put my tuppence worth in uninvited, but Paul is completely right on this. I know how much we all wish to substantiate items in our collections when we have something to go on. I also know how frustrating it is when this proves inconclusive. But, bearing in mind we are no more than caretakers of all we own and one day it will belong to others, we owe it to them AND the memory of those who wore/used these items in battle and often unto death, to leave history as it is with no false trails for the future. If we can be certain, fine, we are doing a service to those past and future owners. If we can't, then I feel it is not in our remit to assume. Hope you won't mind me contributing to this thread, but, again, I feel Paul is absolutely correct on this one. Regards, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 8 February , 2013 Share Posted 8 February , 2013 Completely agree with the above remarks. As Paul mentioned, there is nothing to prove that the man was KIA, I only used the CWGC link to show the numerous possibilities of ownership. Nice looking Brodie all the same. Regards, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mconrad Posted 8 February , 2013 Share Posted 8 February , 2013 If one accepts that it is unknown whether a two-letter initial is first name-last name or last name-first name, then you automatically reduce the probability of a correct attribution to only 50% AT BEST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark88 Posted 8 February , 2013 Share Posted 8 February , 2013 Full agreement with above two posts. Be interesting to know if Sven still feels the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 16 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2013 The helmet was found on a german attic.I guess a German soldier had found it in a trench and afterwards took it home. Hopefully the owner of the helmet survived the war. (And that was my first thought). Certainly it could also be the other way round and in this case the initials in the helmet relate to Jones Herbert Francis Edward who is registered on the list of the fallen soldiers. Which other possibilities can be there? Although there may have been another owner, whose name I cannot find out, I am very happy with this beautiful and (concerning the overall condition) rare helmet. Kind regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 17 February , 2013 Share Posted 17 February , 2013 The strong possibility is that a soldier with a first name starting with J and a last name starting with E had a conection to your helmet- The number may or may not relate to him. I feel that we have not managed to make clear that you do not have enough evidence to link the helmet to HERBERT FRANCIS EDWARD JONES. That link is only a possibility and not a fact. It is though interesting to hear of the helmet being found in Germany. A pity there is no more information passed down on that. Could you show us the underside and liner? Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 17 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2013 Some photos...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 17 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2013 ...and the service number 13598...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 17 February , 2013 Share Posted 17 February , 2013 Great helmet. Thanks for the pictures. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy 60th Posted 17 February , 2013 Share Posted 17 February , 2013 Hi Sven Really nice early helmet with first pattern liner in great condition. Is there any trace of the red Patent stamp between the outer oil-cloth part of the liner and the inner padding ? May only show as a red stain. Regards, Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 18 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2013 The red patent stamp is on the fabric under the oilcloth . Regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 18 February , 2013 Share Posted 18 February , 2013 This is a really fine example Brodie bearing all the hallmarks of one of the earliest of its kind. I quite like the story of it having been found in a German attic in that wherever the helmet has been for the past 100 years, it’s not seen much 'active service' judging by its excellent condition. I've always subscribed to the view that the manufacturers number(s) relates to batches made, and any single digit number suggests (to me) that this is a very early example as furthermore evidenced by such obvious features as 1st pattern lining and chin-strap etc. Also note the very distinct striation marking on the shell, which again I have always associated with the earliest shells. To me it looks to have been painted Apple green (or something like) on manufacture and then shortly thereafter - possibly on arrival at the front been given a quick sand texture coat before actual issue (pure speculation, but seems probable). If it was amongst the first issued, then just as the helmets were a novelty to the British, they were just as such to the German, so the chance to get one as a trophy would I suspect have been jumped at by any of them. To acquire one, it would have had to come from someone who had fallen, as I doubt any of the first issue helmets were ever allowed to be dropped for whatever reason? As a result, there is again a good possibility that however it was acquired; the previous wearer may well have been KIA. Once in German hands, it would have gone home with the soldier on his first available leave, and would have remained at his home for the duration, eventually being relegated to the attic by family who were no longer inclined to look at it. All this I can well imagine and as I say it would certainly account for its well preserved condition, but this is of course only speculation. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 20 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2013 Here some images of another war office pattern brodie in my collection. Enjoy the great condition ...... I want to say thanks to all members who helped me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 20 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2013 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 20 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2013 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 20 February , 2013 Share Posted 20 February , 2013 Another remarkable condition helmet by the look of it - apart from the bullet damage of course. Have you got any information on the history of this one? I can only assume that the damage it sustained was picked up shortly after it was issued and it was immediately taken out of service - no doubt taken home by someone hence the lack of wear to the liner, which is presumably original to the chin strap & shell? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 20 February , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2013 The helmet is out of an old collection. The owner of the collection was a mayor of a small french village. In his tenure time the citizens of the village brought him some material of the war . Time after time the collection grew .He died and few years later the collection was sold all over the world .The helmet was a part in this collection. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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