My Great Uncle's WW1 Tunic - a story and a request for help

[viralto]

Hi there,

I'm Tim and I recently saved my Great Uncle Trevor's WW1 tunic from ending up in a skip! I know close to nothing about militaria but I scraped together some info from relatives and what records I could find. I'm slightly ashamed now that I put this on eBay because, although I didn't know him (he died 3 months after I was born) I've learned a lot about his life since I started looking into the tunic and I'm torn between wanting it to go to an appreciative home and keeping it tucked away in a wardrobe, never seen.

Please, please don't think that this is a thinly veiled advert - I promise that it isn't. I've become genuinely interested in the background of this jacket and the life of this man I never met and I feel I need to learn as much as I can. At this point, I'm seriously uncomfortable with the idea of letting it go but also with the idea of it just languishing in a cupboard :-(

This is the story I've pieced together so far - I'd really appreciate any clarifications, corrections, clues or suggestions you guys may have.

Thanks,

Tim

---

It was recovered from the attic of the house he lived in until he died in March 1970. The house now belongs to another distant family member and when I heard about a 'load of old army junk' being found in the house, I managed to save this from ending up in a skip (my family are the least sentimental people I've ever met)

Speaking to my Grandfather, I learned a little about 'Great Uncle Trevor'. Firstly, that his name was really George, that he was born on the 2nd of August 1891 and also that he was wounded at the Somme. Knowing his real name, I managed to track down his medal index card from The National Archive. He was sent to France on 23 December 1915 as a 2nd Lieutenant, and rose through the ranks to become a Captain by the end of his military career.

This tunic was tailored by E. J. Baker of 28 Charles St, Cardiff in October 1916 (hey, I can read a label!) after he came home wounded from France. I know he returned to active service a few weeks later and my Grandfather remembers him talking about commanding heavy mortar crews in Ypres.

I suspect that this tunic was discarded for something a little newer when Trevor eventually became a Captain and it sat in his attic from when he married my Great Aunt Lillian in 1925, to the day it ended up in my hands in December 2012.

---

[Dragon]

As it's languished undisturbed for so long and if its fate matters to you so much, can't it stay in storage until you're sure? I would pull the eBay auction if I were "seriously uncomfortable" about parting with something.

Gwyn

[egbert]

Stop the auction immediately!

[jess5athome]

Hi Tim, I have to agree with Dragon, pull the auction and save it, at least till you have found out all you can about the Gentleman, if then you no longer want it you could auction it off, However I suspect you will become so deep in your research that you will definately want to keep it.

(I have been there).

Regards,

Frank.

[tanks3]

Tim

I am no RFA expert but I can tell you this fromn the photos you have sent.

Your relative rose to the rank of Major (one step up from a Captain) and the rank insignia on the tunic bears this out. He is wearing the medal ribbon to the 1914 - 1915 star which, according to the MIc, he won as a 2/Lt. On the sleeeve of the tunic is a brass wound strip. On the MIC it also states that the BWM (British War Medal) and VM (victory Medal) were re-issued after they had been returned (for what reason I don't know).

In view of the rank inscribed in the tunic label, and the rank insignia on the tunic itself, I would suggest your relative used this tunic for most of the war.

For me I would keep the tunic and any other bits you have. Once its left the family it will be gone. I hope you have the medals too

Hope that helps

Tanks3

[George Armstrong Custer]

Please, please don't think that this is a thinly veiled advert

Why not? That's exactly what it is.

[Kate Wills]

Tim,

If you are having a crisis of conscience about its future, why have you started the bidding at 99p with free P&P?

[viralto]

Your relative rose to the rank of Major (one step up from a Captain)

And there's a perfect example of how little I know - I didn't even know that Major is above Captain! I just looked at the order on the card and assumed that it was in the correct order!

[viralto]

Why not? That's exactly what it is.

Erm...I'm not sure how to respond to that, other than to reiterate that it isn't and to say that I've ended the auction.

[viralto]

Tim,

If you are having a crisis of conscience about its future, why have you started the bidding at 99p with free P&P?

Free P&P because I can ship pretty much anything around the UK for very little money and 99p because, when I thought I'd made the decision to sell, I intended to donate any proceeds to The Gurkha Welfare Trust and wanted to encourage bidding. If I do end up selling at some point, the money will still go to The Gurkha Welfare Trust.

Hi Tim, I have to agree with Dragon, pull the auction and save it, at least till you have found out all you can about the Gentleman, if then you no longer want it you could auction it off, However I suspect you will become so deep in your research that you will definately want to keep it.

(I have been there).

Regards,

Frank.

Thanks for taking the time respond - you're right and I've ended the auction. I actually feel a lot better now!

[George Armstrong Custer]

Erm...I'm not sure how to respond to that, other than to reiterate that it isn't and to say that I've ended the auction.

I don't suppose that could possibly be because your advertising here had paid off and you'd had an offer you couldn't refuse?

[viralto]

Stop the auction immediately!

Done. Thanks :-)

[viralto]

I don't suppose that could possibly be because your advertising here had paid off and you'd had an offer you couldn't refuse?

Really? This is how you welcome people with a burgeoning interest in this subject?

And no.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Since you had it listed on ebay before you came here, I think the nature of your 'burgeoning interest' is readily apparent.

[Graham Stewart]

Oh how many of us here on this Forum, would wish to own such a family heirloom - alright it may not be to a well known infantry regiment, but if it a relative of mine I be as proud as Punch to have such an item in my possession. Hopefully being an officer of the Royal Field Artillery his Service Records may have survived, which will tell you everything you wish to know - especially if it concerns the Artillery units he served with. At the same time one wonders what else was being chucked out and did it include his medals/service book etc.

Here's an extract from the April 1917 London Gazette showing that he had become a Battery commander;-

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30010/supplements/3308

and a second entry for September 1917;-

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30268/supplements/9216

[viralto]

Since you had it listed on ebay before you came here, I think the extent of your 'burgeoning interest' is readily apparent.

I tried to explain the situation in my original post and in my replies - I'm not sure what else I can do. You can see from my eBay seller history that I've sold exactly 1 item in almost 4 years and nothing I've bought has any relevance to anything military at all. The reality is that although I'm quite sentimental, when I first got the tunic, it was essentially something that belonged to a stranger that I never met. I listed it on eBay because I simply didn't know what else to do with it; I just didn't want it to end up moving from a loft in Cardiff to a loft in High Wycombe! Having spent some time doing what research my limited knowledge allowed, I began to question whether I should let it go. I feel I know this man a little now.

My next move was a Google search for a forum where I could ask for help and advice. I found this place, registered and posted about the tunic in the hope of learning something more about it.

I'm not sure what else I can do to convince you that I'm genuinely interested. Probably nothing I suspect and I'm sorry about that.

Tim

[George Armstrong Custer]

Why not donate it to Firepower, the Royal Artillery Museum at Woolwich, together with its provenance? Surely that would satisfy your professed desire that the man not be forgotten and that his tunic goes to a good home rather than your attic?

[Dragon]

As someone who knows nothing about military uniforms, I took the line that the family complete WW1 uniform I own would take up no space at all in the loft, properly wrapped and hung up with some mothballs. I carefully boxed up the man's accompanying stuff - notebooks, manuals, souvenirs, etc - and locked the valuables in the safe. This bit of family history I am incredibly fortunate to own hadn't been saved in the family for nearly a century just to be put casually into an online auction for total strangers to buy; and even if the current family in this thread are unsentimental, it clearly mattered to the original owner otherwise he would have disposed of it. There are all sorts of if-onlys once it's gone.

What I would add is that I would wish to make sure that stuff is not infested if it's been lying around for years and, if you come across papers and books in the loft clearance, take care with what you're breathing in.

Gwyn

Edited to improve phrasing.

Edited 30 January , 2013 by Dragon

[Graham Stewart]

I tried to explain the situation in my original post and in my replies - I'm not sure what else I can do. You can see from my eBay seller history that I've sold exactly 1 item in almost 4 years and nothing I've bought has any relevance to anything military at all. The reality is that although I'm quite sentimental, when I first got the tunic, it was essentially something that belonged to a stranger that I never met. I listed it on eBay because I simply didn't know what else to do with; I just didn't want it to end up moving from a loft in Cardiff to a loft in High Wycombe! Having spent some time doing what research my limited knowledge allowed, I began to question whether I should let it go. I feel I know this man a little now.

I'm not sure what else I can do to convince you that I'm genuinely interested. Probably nothing I suspect and I'm sorry about that.

Tim

Tim

Don't beat yourself up over it, it's just that in the past we've had requests for information regarding medals/service personnel etc only to discover the information has indeed made it's way onto a E.bay to enhance the value of items - hence a cautious approach when such an item comes along and questions are asked. If this item belonged a family member of mine - wild horses wouldn't get me to part with it.

[viralto]

Oh how many of us here on this Forum, would wish to own such a family heirloom - alright it may not be to a well known infantry regiment, but if it a relative of mine I be as proud as Punch to have such an item in my possession. Hopefully being an officer of the Royal Field Artillery his Service Records may have survived, which will tell you everything you wish to know - especially if it concerns the Artillery units he served with. At the same time one wonders what else was being chucked out and did it include his medals/service book etc.

Here's an extract from the April 1917 London Gazette showing that he had become a Battery commander;-

http://www.london-ga...upplements/3308

and a second entry for September 1917;-

http://www.london-ga...upplements/9216

That's fascinating - and all the more so because I use the London Gazette almost every day in my job and it never occurred to me that these kinds of records would be available!

Thanks so much for helping to fill in some of the blanks.

I'm pretty sure his other possessions were distributed around that side of the family back when he died in 1970. This was a surprise find in the loft of his old house, hanging in the rafters behind a pile of empty boxes.

[viralto]

Why not donate it to Firepower, the Royal Artillery Museum at Woolwich, together with its provenance? Surely that would satisfy your professed desire that the man not be forgotten and that his tunic goes to a good home rather than your attic?

Great idea!

I'll find out if they're interested and if they want it; it's theirs.

My only reservation is that The Gurkha Welfare Trust might miss out on some much needed funds so, here's my idea:

You (and/or anyone with a better idea than me) give me an idea of what this would likely be worth if it were sold and I'll donate that amount to the GWT and post the receipt on here so that you can see it.

Sound fair?

[Dragon]

I can empathise - fairly recently I spotted a WW2 Marines uniform simply hanging in the garage of a newly-dead relative. (Weirdly, I am utterly convinced it hadn't been there on our first inspection a week previously. And the house had been unoccupied for weeks.) I've added it to the collection of his other WW2 uniforms which I own, legitimately. This isn't what I mentioned in my previous post.

Is it possible for you to make contact with other relatives to see whether anything else has survived since 1970? Like Graham, I'm curious about the rest of the 'load of old army junk'. Someone must know what happened to that if it's recent.

Gwyn

[viralto]

I can empathise - fairly recently I spotted a WW2 Marines uniform simply hanging in the garage of a newly-dead relative. (Weirdly, I am utterly convinced it hadn't been there on our first inspection a week previously. And the house had been unoccupied for weeks.) I've added it to the collection of his other WW2 uniforms which I own, legitimately. This isn't what I mentioned in my previous post.

Is it possible for you to make contact with other relatives to see whether anything else has survived since 1970? Like Graham, I'm curious about the rest of the 'load of old army junk'. Someone must know what happened to that if it's recent.

Gwyn

I've asked the distant cousins that own the house now about the 'load of' part and I think it was a 'load of' cardboard boxes full of old jigsaws and cardigans (well, they are Welsh after all!) with one tunic (the one I have) plus an old military suitcase full of photos that I'm trying to locate. They're certain that it didn't get skipped during the big clearout prior to the loft conversion starting, but they can't lay hands on it right now.

I'm still hopeful but not convinced

[garfyboy]

A great find and I to wouldn't part with it if it was a family heirloom of mine but we are all different, would be nice to see it go to a museum.

If you could reconcile the other bits also, the lot would make a nice display.

My advice would be - hang on to it and pass it down

Andy

[Grovetown]

Great idea!

I'll find out if they're interested and if they want it; it's theirs.

My only reservation is that The Gurkha Welfare Trust might miss out on some much needed funds so, here's my idea:

You (and/or anyone with a better idea than me) give me an idea of what this would likely be worth if it were sold and I'll donate that amount to the GWT and post the receipt on here so that you can see it.

Sound fair?

Sad to say, but museums - and especially military museums - can be shocking custodians of personal material like this.

To be honest, and with respect to the original owner, it's not an outstanding example of the type and the service history is unremarkable. The museum, I think, wouldn't get excited about it and it is exactly the sort thing that many of them out through the back door and into auction to raise funds.

With the personal connection, you'd be much much better placed either keeping it or giving it to the charity directly for it to auction.

Value: named and dated corps shoulder rank - £350 tops, with a strong following wind.

Cheers,

GT.