Land Mines

[Lachlan]

Dear All

Were land mines ever used during the Great War ?

Presumably the technology was there and I understand types of land mines were sown around the Richmond-Petersburg trench front during the American Civil War. I could imagine the Hindenburg Line being liberally protected by them.

[centurion]

Apart from a few early in the war anti personnel mines were not used. Anti tank mines were used in considerable numbers by both sides. Booby traps were sometimes used including charges set off by trip wires to discourage wire cutters and anti tampering devices were introduced by the Germans in some anti tank mines. There are old threads on the subject - try a forum search.

Anti personnel mines pre date the ACW being used in China and Japan at least a century earlier than this. These were set off by the weight of a person forcing down a flap that span a wheel against a flint! ACW mines were used by the Confederates in a number of instances and people were still being killed by them after WW2. Anti personnel mines wre used in small numbers by the British in the South African War to deny fords to Boer raiding parties and kommandos. However modern APMs date from the period between the World Wars.

[Lachlan]

Thanks for that. It was one of these things I hadn't given much thought to till now.

[PhilB]

I was in Llandaff Cathedral recently and was told that the building had been severely damaged by a land mine dropped during WW2. Is that a misnomer?

[centurion]

Effectively a WW2 very large blast bomb dropped on a parachute. I think they used the same casing as the marine magnetic mine and the same anti tampering devices on the fuse.

[PhilB]

Would a WW2 landmine necessarily be delayed action to harm firefighters etc?

[centurion]

Probably not - they were supposed to explode before hitting the ground thus maximising the blast effect. However the timer sometimes failed (stuck) so they landed on the ground. Very dangerous for the UXB officers as if the 'clock' restarted they'd explode in seconds. If there was known to be an unexploded land mine in a building rescuers/ firefighters might well keep clear until it was dealt with,

[C.TIERNEY.]

Hello,

I thought this might interest you, 6th Bn RMF encountered mines at Suvla Bay.

It is mentioned on page 141 of Bryan Ricco Cooper's book 'The 10th (Irish) Division in Gallipoli' (1918).

FYI

C.T.

http://ia700309.us.archive.org/26/items/tenthirishdivisi00cooprich/tenthirishdivisi00cooprich.pdf

[centurion]

We've had this before. They do not seem to have been APMs but much more substantial explosive devices (obsolete torpedo war heads for example) probably detonated by a form of command wire or fuse - more akin to an IED

[Tonolik]

Hello,

if you can be of interest, this book is disposable only in italian Language.

In 90 pages with 80 figures and photos the book explain about mines used on the Italian front from Austrian and Italian.

[Ogilwy]

The German Airdropped parachute Mines were initially Type A and B which were magnetic influence mines of 500 and 1000 Kg respectively designed to sink shipping.

The success of the mines that missed the water (The Thames predominantly) led to the development of the Type G.

This was a delayed action mine with a clockwork delay of upto 6 days. These had a bakelite tail that disintegrated upon impact and an especially nasty photo electiric cell beneath the fuze cover to kill EOD operators. Should the clock on the fuze be started then it is approx 15 Seconds to detonation.

For this reason the procedure was to walk 10 seconds from the mine and dig a shallow trench, if you heard the clock start you ran to the trench took cover and awaited light and noise. Survivors quite rightly got a nice big medal for this.

The first war mines and booby traps are covered in a period manual written by one of the RAOC EOD Officers at the time, (avaiable now from one of the suppliers of this type of publication, I forget where I got mine). Although not mass produced on the western front they were booby traps were common and of varied and particularly nasty design.

A particular favorite of mine is a mass produced item but it's employment varied, the German Booby trap fuze that once set is inserted into a shell in a gun position or ammunition store prior to evacuation or being take by the enemy. After a set time the fuze functions along with the remaining ammunition in the area! Oh and it looks just like the normal fuze and in almost indistinguishable! I believe an accident a few years ago was caused by one of these and several people unfortunately lost their lives through it.

Learning point! Not everything is what it seems and sometimes the lesson is particularly hard!

Oh how I love EOD!!

Regards to all,

Rod

[303man]

I have a WW1 DCM Group 546721 Cpl H G LATARCHE 512 (Lon) Fd Coy RE TF and the citation reads "On the evening of the 28 Aug ,whilst the enemy still held part of Croiselles, he entered it by the main road in search of ROAD MINES. A SURFACE MINE was Discovered on the road near the centre of the village, which he disconnected and removed under machine gun and sniper's fire. after reporting the road clear of traps, he with 2 sappers, spent the greater part of the night carrying wounded to the advanced dressing station. Throughout the operation he showed marked courage and did first rate work in removing six traps East of Croiselles on the 29 Aug.

My bold emphasising that MINES are mentioned in 1917

[auchonvillerssomme]

There has been previous discussion about the round section of toffee apples being used as anti tank mines, I seem to remember an ex-forum member, who may or may not be here under a different name, provided evidence.

[ServiceRumDiluted]

Smidge off topic but if any one is curious about the size of hole in the ground left by a WW2 german parachute mine and they are near Sheffield theres a big one in Wheata woods near Grenoside, just off Rough lane. A miss from a 1941 raid on Stocksbridge steel works.

[Ogilwy]

SRD,

Any where from 15 - 60 Feet dependant upon depth of detonation, type of soil / grond make up and a thousand other small details that can change the shape and size of the hole!

That is a very ball park figure and dependant upon the text used can vary quite a bit!

Paul,

You are the worst of collectors! Does the CinC know what you've been buying now (a DCM Group!). I know the post war clear up was by the Ammunition Examiners of the RAOC, I have the details of a Sgt Charles Smoker who was in charge of an EOD team their until 1926 on the Somme working out of Amiens. His decendant just happens to be the head of the De-mineur now and it would appear he stayed due to personal attachments!! Must be in the blood.

Rod

P.S. Paul do you have any good 7.92mm Chargers? I need some for my new G98. Thanks.

[ServiceRumDiluted]

I'd estimate the hole to be about 15ft deep and 40-50ft across but time and small boys playing <well me anyway, I was brought up there> have softened it considerably. Still worth seeing though.

[Mark Hone]

Some of the accounts of the 1st LF landings at W Beach Gallipoli claim that the Turks had deployed APMs on the shoreline but there seems to be some debate about whether they existed.

[Mike_H]

Mark

Attached IWM photo shows the Turkish Tufenjieff mine, an 11cm cube, segmented internally, electrically detonated. If I remember correctly this example was recovered from Lancashire landing according to the original accession details I saw years ago.

Mike

[Chris Henschke]

The Turkish mine posted by Mike_H in post No.18 would be described (in the doctrine of the time) as an "Observation Mine." Generally to be found in front of permanent or semi-permanent fortifications.

As opposed to "Contact Mines", generally laid out in minefields.

The attached diagram is from German Land Mines, printed in October 1915 and issued to Staffs of Divisions and Higher Formations and to Commanders of Field Squadrons and Field Companies, R.E.

Chris Henschke

[Mark Hone]

I am currently reading 'The Tenth ( Irish) Division in Gallipoli' by Major Bryan Cooper, originally published in 1917. In his description of the Suvla landings he makes a couple of specific mentions of the soldiers encountering land mines which exploded on contact. On page 85 he says that when they landed at about noon on 7th August, the 6th Royal Munster Fusiliers found that the enemy had sown the beach with mines and that several men were injured by them.

[Ogilwy]

An excellent book is, "HINTS ON RECONNAISSANCE FOR MINES AND LAND MINES IN THE AREA EVACUATED BY THE GERMANS" I believe it was written for the General Staff by an Ordnance Officer, who seems to have done a good job on it. It encompasses various known devices (usually improvised from various pieces of ordnance) and the tactics and placement used with them.

Of particular note is the use of German Chemical shell with a hole drilled in the side to permit the slow release of the gas. This was placed behind a false wall made with air holes, in a building's celler that the enemy knew would be used as a shelter by the advancing troops.

[Guest]

There is plenty of evidence in the diaries of the 11th (Northern) and 10th (Irish) Divs at the Suvla bay landings....

8th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers 6th Aug 1915 (100 years ago today)

The battalion moved up towards Suvla Bay on two torpedo boat destroyers. Tea was partaken on board and later rum was issued. Every man on board who was going to land was wearing two large armbands, one upon each arm and on the back a white tin disc more commonly known as a "twinkler". The idea of the armbands was that the landing was to be attempted at night and in the event of success anyone who was not wearing armbands was to be treated as an enemy. The "twinkler" was to assist the navy gunners to locate the extreme position of the landing troops. The landing was completed about 04:30.after a little resistance by the enemy. The chief troubles were snipers and land mines.

One of the lighters grounded and the troops on board had to reach land by means of a small boat along a tow line and wading for about 50 yards to the shore. The general direction was towards CHOCOLATE HILL. this was eventually captured. W Coy was detached to the left towards KARAKOL DAGH to assist the 5th Bn DORSETSHIRE REGT and also to act as covering party in case of a retirement on that flank.

About 08:00 the commanding officer Lt Col C E FISHBOURNE was severely wounded in the chest. Maj E E WILLIAMS DSO assumed command and Lt H I POWELL became Adjt as Capt A P GARNIER was wounded during the transfer of the troops from the destroyer to the lighters on the night of the 5th August.

9th Bn West Yorkshire Regt 7th Aug 1915

After occupying LALA BABA Hill, Battalion pushed forward across sandy isthmus and SALT LAKE and supported 34th INF BDE (9th Bn LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS) in attack on HILL 10 where enemy had strongly entrenched position surrounded with land mines.

Nine Officers wounded in assault. Battalion become now rather scattered, some Platoons moving North to support 34th INF BDE on KIRETCH TEPE SIRT whilst others moved with the 33rd INF BDE and 10th DIV to attack YILGHIN BURNU (CHOCOLATE HILL). Headquarters went with 34th INF BDE. Battalion collected for night and billeted in Turkish Redoubt at HILL 10. Water scarce. Many Turkish rifles and 3 cases of shells in redoubt.

11th Bn Manchester Regt 7th Aug 1915.

At length all had disembarked and when the CO got ashore he formed the Battalion lying quietly on the beach with bayonets fixed and ready to move against the ridge on the North of the Bay i.e. KARAKOL DAGH and KIRETCH TEPE SIRT. The first Company to advance was Q Coy under Capt OLIVER with the trenches at GHAZI BABA and a signal post on the sea at BIYUK KEMIKLI as its objective. Maj BATES with R Coy moved against trenches north and east of GHAZI BABA, a third Company followed close up and the CO with the fourth Company followed in reserve.

Having moved across the gap where the SALT LAKE runs out into the sea the Battalion moved along the beach in which were many mines but fortunately exploded none. The trenches were reached without serious opposition and were taken with the bayonet, the Turks retiring onto KARAKOL DAGH followed by the Battalion. The ground passed over was very rough and difficult and several men including the MO and stretcher bearers got lost and were killed or fell into the enemy's hands.

When day broke the Battalion was astride the ridge about ½ inland faced by the Turks in fewer numbers which increased during the day. The machine-gun and about 300 rifles were out of action for several hours owing to being clogged with sand and salt water. The attack was then commenced and was strenuously opposed by the enemy but the Battalion succeeded in taking the ridge for about 3 miles inland and was then brought to a standstill owing to heavy opposition in front and to being enfiladed on both sides. There was no means of communicating with the Brigade HQ and no other unit was at hand but about midday a message was sent by flag signal to a destroyer and shortly before dark the Battalion was reinforced by two Battalions 10th DIV but even this support did not enable any further advance to be made and after dark the force as much as possible prepared sangars to enable them to hang on during the night.

10th (Irish) Div. HQ 30th Inf Bde War Diary 6th AUg 1915.

06:00. Arrived at SUVLA BAY.

11:00. Troops on HAZEL disembarked at GHAZI BABA. 6 casualties from land mines. Water up to waist. 6th Bn ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS advance 300 yards and reorganise.

11:30. Verbal report from Scout Officer 6th Bn ROYAL MUNSTER FUS that 11th Bn MANCHESTER REGT was advancing along ridge in NE direction.

11:40. 7th Bn ROYAL MUNSTER FUS commenced to disembark at SUVLA POINT.

14:00. The Brigade advanced through the 11th MANCHESTERS (who were much exhausted) as far as 2nd E in KIRETCH TEPE SIRT.

18:00. 6th and 7th Bn ROYAL MUNSTER FUS entrench on line running from T in TEPE to a point on ridge about 600 yards South West of it. The 11th Bn MANCHESTER REGT entrenched line to left as far as the sea Point 135 J 5.

22:00. The 11th Bn MANCHESTER REGT was relieved by three companies 5th Bn ROYAL INNISKILLING FUS and drawn back into reserve. Having lost 15 Officers and 250 to 300 men. The 11th Bn MANCHESTER REGT and 5th Bn ROYAL INNISKILLING FUS were temporarily attached to the Brigade.

7th Bn Royal Munster Fus War Diary 7th Aug 1915.

05:30. Battalion arrived off SUVLA BAY. When the HMT ROWAN entered the warships were shelling the Turkish positions heavily. The 11th DIV had already landed and a battery of Field Artillery was in action near LALA BABA. The 6th Bn and 7th Bn ROYAL DUBLIN FUS had landed and moved to CHOCOLATE HILL. These two Battalions were separated from the Brigade from July 9th having sailed to MYTILENE in HMT ALAUNIA. Our troops could be seen landing under shellfire near LALA BABA and collecting behind the hill and along the beach to the West. Their advance beyond SALT LAKE was observed. Nothing could be seen of what was occurring on KIRETCH TEPE SIRT. HMT ROWAN having narrowly escaped being hit by shell-fire was obliged to shift station.

14:00. The Battalion was placed in two lighters C and D Coys leading, A and B Coys and HQ following. 6th Bn ROYAL MUNSTER FUS preceded the Battalion and made for the beach East of point of KIRETCH TEPE SIRT while the Battalion lighters were lying off waiting for 6th Bn ROYAL MUNSTER FUS to disembark, four mines were exploded causing some casualties.

5th Bn Royal Irish Regt (Pioneers) 7th Aug 1915.

SS CARRON anchored in SUVLA BAY.

04:30 - 12:00. Rifle fire of enemy and our infantry along coast from about NIBRUNESI POINT to CAPE SUVLA witnessed from SS CARRON. Enemy's artillery fire from direction of SARI BAIR HEIGHTS - KUCHUK ANAFARTA - some shells dropping within 300 yards of SS CARRON. One man of D Coy and one of ship's crew wounded by shrapnel bullets.

12:00. Battalion disembarked from SS CARRON and landed from two lighters about points 116 N 4 and 116 N 5 and bivouacked about point 116 J 5.

17:00. One Officer and 50 men furnished to carry 20 boxes SAA to HQ 30th INF BDE about point 165.

18:00. One Officer and 48 men furnished to carry 20 boxes SAA to HQ 30th INF BDE. A and D Coys furnished outposts covering HQ, 10 DIV and Battalion bivouac facing East and South-East from about point 116 D 9 to about point 116 P 7. One man on outpost duty killed by explosion of land mine about point 116.

And the British laying mines before the evacuation: HQ 32nd If Bde war diary 10th Dec 1915.

BOOT and slopes of KARAKOL DAGH shelled. Work of improving the wire continued. Land mines laid in front of our lines by RE.

56 sick and weakly men evacuated. Casualties: OR 3 killed and 5 wounded.