British Officer's WW1 .455 Colt service revolver - photographs

[Lancashire Fusilier]

For me, the 1917 Colt is too uncomfortable in my hand. The S&W was designed better I think. I've never fired or owned a Webley. I think that I might get one though if I find a good one at the next gun show. I really like the look of them! Fred G.

Fred G.,

Many thanks for your comments and appreciation of my revolvers.

I agree with you, the Smith and Wesson is more comfortable to handle.

If you get the chance to handle and fire a Webley revolver, you will certainly enjoy the experience! and will want to own one.

Here are some other Webleys from my Collection, including the Webley WG Army revolver in .455, a Webley Mk.VI Service Revolver in .455, a Webley Mk.VI Service Revolver in .45, a Webley Mk.IV 6 inch barrel revolver in .38, and a Webley Mk.IV 4 inch barrel revolver in .38.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

3

[deadin]

The following is a response I received from David Penn in reply to my queries concerning a S&W Triple Lock that belonged to a RAMC Officer I am researching .

It was entirely usual for RAMC officers to carry a pistol. and, as with other army officers, they were required to purchase their own. By the middle of the war this was in practice possible where .455 revolvers were concerned only by purchasing a revolver 'out of store' (i.e. from the War Office) or second hand, privately. It was of course still possible to purchase pistols not in the Service calibre from civilian sources, and many officers chose to carry something other than (or as well as) a .455 (.32 acp Colts were very popular). Revolvers with the opposed broad arrow markings were 'sold out of store'. These became the officer's property absolutely. At the end of the War, there was a second shortage of revolvers (the American factories were making for the American government, and relations between the British government and Webley were not good). The government therefore launched an appeal to retired officers to sell back their .455s. Very occasionally, therefore, such a revolver is found with cancelled 'sold out of store' markings.

I hope that this information is of help in your research.

Yours sincerely,

David Penn

Keeper, Exhibits & Firearms

I see that your nice Colt has the opposed broad arrow markings. I don't know that I have ever seen a cancelled 'sold out of store' marking.

On a different, but related subject... Is the lanyard you have unique to the Colt? If so, what would a S&W have been and where could I find one?

Dean

[TonyE]

I have seen an occassional cancelled "Sold out of store" marking with the opposed Broad Arrows struck out, but they are certainly not common.

The War Office placed advetisements to purchase officers' pistols in this period.

Regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The following is a response I received from David Penn in reply to my queries concerning a S&W Triple Lock that belonged to a RAMC Officer I am researching .

I see that your nice Colt has the opposed broad arrow markings. I don't know that I have ever seen a cancelled 'sold out of store' marking.

On a different, but related subject... Is the lanyard you have unique to the Colt? If so, what would a S&W have been and where could I find one?

Dean

Dean,

You are very fortunate to own a Smith and Wesson Triple Lock revolver, one of the best.

Is your's the .455 model issued to the British during WW1 ?, if so, is it only one of some 5000 issued in Triple Lock, and with wartime losses etc., very few survive today.

With regard to the ' Colt ' lanyard, this was a specific Colt product, however, I am sure many were also used with the Smith and Wesson revolver.

Today they are still available, and good originals are available typically in the U.S.A., and range from $90/100+.

Most British officers used the British Webley style holster, which fits both the Colt and Smith and Wesson revolvers, and probably also used the British service revolver lanyard on their American produced revolvers.

As in the reply from David Penn, other calibres as well as .455 were also used by British Officers, including .32.

Here are some photographs of a fine Harrington and Richardson .32 semi-automatic pistol from my Collection, issued to a WW1 British Officer.

This particular pistol, serial number 276 is a rare type 1 being one of just 1761 type 1's produced, with just 12 serrations on the breech slide. After serial number 1761, the serrations were increased to 16. A total of just 34,500 .32s were produced.

Regards,

LF

[deadin]

LF,

Love the little .32. It looks like a W&S .455 Auto that hasn’t grown up yet. (Do you imagine H&R copied the general style of the W&S with the idea of selling to Britain?)

As for my .455 Triple Lock, yes it is one of the 5000 contract guns. (Serial #7xx).

Actually there were an additional 808 .455 TL made, 666 of which went to the British military with the remainder being sold commercially. This batch of 808 were converted from regular production .44 Specials by rebarreling and changing the cylinder to .455. Their serial numbers fell in the commercial range and were spread from 1104 to 10417 with 63 of them duplicating the serials of some of the separate order of 5000. The remaining ~142 were sold commercially with numbers 9883 thru 10002, 10005, 10006 & 10007 going to Wilkinson Sword, London and the rest to Shapleigh Hardware, St. Louis, Mo. (I have the serials of all of the converted pieces so if you have any questions, let me know.) The Wilkinson Sword order is listed as being Oct. 1, 1914 and the Shapleigh as 1 Jan 1918.

The military orders were sent via Remington UMC (purchasing agent for the Commonwealth) from 8 APR 1912 through 26 APR 1916 with the majority delivered in the shipment of 21 OCT 1914. (This is the one my example was in and it didn’t stay in stores very long as its owner joined the RAMC in March 1915.

Dean

[TonyE]

LF,

Love the little .32. It looks like a W&S .455 Auto that hasn’t grown up yet. (Do you imagine H&R copied the general style of the W&S with the idea of selling to Britain?)......

Dean

The H & R automatic pistols were the result of a licence agreement with Webley signed in 1909 to exploit the Webley patents in the United States. Both the H & R .25ACP and .32ACP pistols were designed by William Whiting of Webley, although they differed in detail from the British pistols.

The agreement continued until about 1924.

Regards

TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF,

Love the little .32. It looks like a W&S .455 Auto that hasn’t grown up yet. Dean

Dean,

Pleased you liked the HR .32, and as TonyE said, this .32 semi-auto pistol was produced under licence from Webley and Scott, and had several upgraded variations not found on the Webley and Scott .32. The most important variation being that the Webley and Scott pistol had an external hammer, whereas the Harrington and Richardson version had no exteral hammer, being a striker fired pistol with the firing mechanism housed in the frame, which under trench warfare conditions, it was much easier to keep the HR pistol's firing mechanism clean.

In addition to the conventional safety lever, the HR .32 also had a grip safety lever attached to the rear of the grip, which was activated by the shooter's hand grip. The HR .32 also had a loaded cartridge indicator in the form of a small pin which projected through the the top surface of the breechslide, which could be seen and felt when a cartridge was chambered.

My photographs of the HR .32 shown in post #30, may not give a good indication of the pistol's size, so here is another photograph showing the WW1 HR .32 alongside 2 WW2 pistols of like calibre, a Walther PP, and a Walther PPK RZM ( Reichszuegmeisterei model ) pistol from my Collection, and as you can see, they are very similar in size.

Regards,

LF

[BHJ63F]

LF

Very interesting collection of Webleys. I need to illustrate a profile I am writing of a soldier who died at Kut on 9 Jan 1917 for a local history web site and who left his service revolver in his will. Would you be Ok with me using your picture of the Webley and holster?

Regards

Bill

 

[MikeyH]

38 minutes ago, BHJ63F said:

LF

Very interesting collection of Webleys. I need to illustrate a profile I am writing of a soldier who died at Kut on 9 Jan 1917 for a local history web site and who left his service revolver in his will. Would you be Ok with me using your picture of the Webley and holster?

Regards

Bill

 

Lancashire Fusilier hasn't been active on this forum for some time.

Mike.

[BHJ63F]

Mike, thanks for letting me know. Bill

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, BHJ63F said:

Mike, thanks for letting me know. Bill

Welcome to the GWF

As noted @Lancashire Fusilier has not visited us since last year

You can try the Personal Message system just click on the name an open the dialog box 'Message'