WW1/Interwar Pith Helmets - help needed to ID

[westernhighlander]

Hello Gentlemen,

I have several pith helmets and would really appreciate any info that can be provided on them. I've posted a few pics of them below.

The first helmet has white over blue diamond helmet flash and 39 over DSC emroidered on the flash with the number 17 (?1917?)stamped beneath the war department stamp (W/I\D) and "X" above.

I believe it to be from the 39th battalion of the 17th(Western) Division, stationed in Mesopotamia and later in Northern Persia (Baku) toward the end of and after WW1.

The second helmet is slightly different in its manufacturing. Its more consistent with pith helmets produced early during WW1 vs those produced later toward the end and during the "Inter-war" period. It has the helmet flash of the Lancas hire Fusiliers,thick worsted wool, moth eaten, and faded redorange. Although its with some trepidation, I am guardedly optimistic that it may be of the Gallipoli campaign. It looks as though the liner is either a replacment or was repaired in the field - the construction of thehelmet maybe WW1, but I suspect the liner is later war or even interwar in its vintage. Since it is glued and the seam of the liner isnt centered, I am inclined to believe it may have been used to replace the original liner - perhaps a field repair? Additionally I cannot see any specific dates on it, however there is an oval stamp on the cork suggesting its maker was that of Hobson and Sons.

Below is another WW1/interwar pith helmet, I'm not sure.

It has the helmet flash of the sphinx in red with S.LAN.R embroidered in red as well.

I presume it to be that of the South Lancashire Rifles. On the inside of the liner is the war dept stamp and the number 14 below it with the letter C above. The liner and looks to be later war or inter war, Again I cant be certain and would appreciate it if anyone could offer any info that may determine its date so that I can then try to determine where the soldier who wore it would have been stationed. Additionally, does the "C" above the WD stamp suggest its Canadian?

Thanks,

Mike

[Joe Sweeney]

Mike,

I'm no expert on Wolseley Helmets. But the RACD acceptance (top and Bottom helmets) appear to be interwar stamps.

Prior to 1915 the stamp was a Crows foot over a number (inspector) over the year date for items made by contractors or the Crows foot over a letter for items manufactured in RACF (I don't know if the RACF actually made Wolseley Helmets or not). In 1915 the stamp changed to a number over Crows foot over a letter The number identified the inspector--the letter code is a bit of a mystery, but does not designate a country.

After the war the stamp changed to Letter of Crows foot over number. There is a bit of evidence that the letter may have correspended to year and the number is again is the inspector. There is also a bit of evidence this stamping may have started in 1918, but is very rare to find a 1918 dated article with this type of stamp.

AS for the Middle photo I can't help.

You might also want to ask the folks at

http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/

Joe Sweeney

[Jerry B]

Does the middle example have its liner mounted with metal pins similar to those seen on badges, as I am pretty certain that that system of mounting the liner was first introduced by Vero in 1925.

The letter code above the broad arrow does in later periods correspond to a date and those for WWII are well known but for the earlier periods I am not sure how much is known about them.

[westernhighlander]

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the reply,

yes the second helmet does have a set oc cotter pins threaded through the sweatband and through a lug attached to the helmet itself. On closer examination it the sweatband hasnt been glued, it was just "matted together in one spot. So would this be a 1925 type of sweatband liner put out by Vero that you mentoned?

I was also doing research and just realized that divisional patches were not the only flashes used on piths,turns out battalion shoulder patches were also used, so I'm not sure which battalion used the 39 DSC white over blue diamond patch - I stillthinkit was the 39th desert support column.

Mike

[Jerry B]

Hi Mike, yes it sounds like it has the 1925 onwards vero type liner. The Blue and white diamond flash is something I would associate with a signals unit, though not something I would state as a fact, as Pith helmet flashes are often hard to ID to unit.

[JOHN BALL]

Hi Mike, 2nd Batt South Lancs, stationed in India 1922-1940. From1925,Assam-27,Jubbulpore-30,Landi Kotal-N.W. Frontier-33,Allahabad-36,Quetta-39,Bombay-1940.

John.

[westernhighlander]

Joe and Jerry,

As per your suggestion, I posted these helmets on another site ( www.militarysunhelmets.com) - it was thought that the helmets with SLANC and DSC flashes are probably pre /during WW1 and the presence of cork spacers suggests they are for officers. It was also stated that the letter stamp over the crows foot "C" likely represents Canada and the 14, 17 are years of inspection, which seems to make sense if these are WW1 era, ie (19)14 and (19)17. If the helmet with the DSC flash is the 39th battalion of the 17th Division, they were in Mesopotamia /Baku in 1918 which correlates with the stamp of 17 ( 1917?). I have no idea what "X" may represent.

The markings of pith helmets from WW2 dont seem to correlate with any year, and may represent the inspectors ID. For example a WW2 helmet with the Sudan flash that I posted on www.militarysunhelmets.com has the letter "O" over WD with number 267 stamped below, while the manufacturers tag on the sweatband shows the size (6 7/8) and the date (1941). Another WW2 pith also has a similar stamp ( O over WD with an inscrutiblle #, --6).

Mike

[Jerry B]

WWII pith helmets and other items such as BD blouses and webbing equipment with the broad arrow stamp and the letter above have a reverse letter sequence running as listed below;

1939=R 1940=Q 1941=P 1942=O 1943=N 1944=M 1945=L or Z, the latter being after the wars end I think, though this is not clear and except for the uncertainty about why two letters are used for 1945, this is not in doubt. I have several WWII marked items that correlate exactly with this system of letter coding and it is accepted as being how I describe it amongst many collectors I know on other forums. They continued to use this system after the war, but I have not studied it in any depth and have yet to work out how it works, though a similar pattern could be established if sufficient items were available for study.

Your O marked pith is slightly unusual as the acceptance mark is for 1942 though the manufacturers mark dates it as 1941, so probably made very late in 1941 before being accepted in early 1942 would by my opinion on it.

I would show examples of dated items that match with the letter codes on the WD arrows, but I cannot post any more images at this time because my post count only allows a limited 2mb of images to be posted.

[Jerry B]

Hi Mike, you might need to reread some of what was posted by Stuart on the sun helmets forum as I think some of it has been jumbled up. I am glad to see he agree about the vero mounting system and he mentions the cork spacers as being interwars years. The leather edge trim is typical of officers helmets, whilst OR's used a fabric trim. The number below the arrow mark is something I am uncertain about, as I thought WWI piths have a number for the date above the arrow and not below it, though the 14 and 17 could be seen as suggesting dates for them from WWI, but I am not certain that is the case, though I am probably wrong on that.

Very nice helmets whatever date they are and when I can post pictures I'll add my interwars examples to this thread, though that will not be for a few months. The leather trimmed example for officers should not have a date on it, which you posted it did not, as they would be private purchase and would not come through the WD acceptance system. Can you post a pic of the Hobson & son makers marks?

[Joe Sweeney]

Mike/Jerry,

I put my 2cents on the sun helmets forum and think stuart is correct on manfacturing styles but not on markings, I hope this creates a debate as I'd like see if anyone can post pictures showing a wartime or prewar dated Helmet with a letter on top and and number below. Mike at best your two RACD stamp helmets were made after 1918 and bnefore 1925 in the same style as Great War Helmets.

I agree with Jerry the O and 1941 actually do line up. 41 is the manufacturers date and it was accepted in 1942.

Joe Sweeney

[westernhighlander]

Joe/Jerry

Thanks, I reread the posts on the sun helmets forum - a bit confusing to say the least.

Whatever the date, I do treasure these pieces and I'm lucky to have them in my collection.

I,too,would like to see some more helmets from this period - prewar/WW1/and interwar - to see the evolution of dating/stamping.

I've gone ahead and attached the SDF(Sudan Defence Force) helmet liner stamp ( O over WD over 269) along with the manufacturers label. I concur with Joe, made in '41, consecrated in '42.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/Westernhighlander/sdftag_zps3c8a6e21.png

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/Westernhighlander/sdfdate_zps94ed889f.png

Jerry, I mispoke about the Hobson and Sons makers mark on the Lanc Fusilier helmet - its on a different helmet; the Lanc helmet has the remnants of a makers mark on the inside cork - a faint bluish/purple elongated oval just above the sweatband - nothing else is visible. But if anyone knows a maker that had a stamp with such a shape ( elongated oval), would be helpful. Also above it there is another circular marking, not sure if its dirt or perhaps the vestiges of the adhesive of a label that has long since peeled off. It being an officers helmet, could be a private purchase. The pictures are not particularly revealing, but I'll post.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/Westernhighlander/LFmakersmark_zps628c8b83.png

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/Westernhighlander/image-13_zps7b0238e5.jpg

Mike

[Jerry B]

The helmets ltd 1941 label is one I have in a pith, though not otherwise dated. My example is pretty battered and has been painted white, for parade use I assume. I have a Hobson & son Kilmarknock cap with a 1940 date under a broad arrow on the label and also a Q above another broad arrow under the lining which is the only item I have to hand which is double dated though I have seen others items with both methods of dating.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/USA-britain-ww2-cloth-headgear/8th-gurkha-rifles-pillbox-hat-1940-dated-wd-marked-192851/

[pearsonica]

Hi 

A freind of mine, Kevan Darby, posted this picture on Facebook. But I not sure he is part of the 9th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Does anybody know what the insignia on his Helmet? The unknown L/cpl was on leave at Belgaum, India. 
 

Regards

 

Ian Pearson

[6RRF]

Looks like the Royal Warwickshires cap badge

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I agree that he appears to be with a Royal Warwickshire Regiment battalion.  That regiment favoured wearing its cap badge on solar helmets of various patterns over the years, usually on a patch of coloured cloth.  Often worn on the front, but also as here, on the side.

The diamond shaped flash looks like that of the 9th Battalion Royal Warwickshires who were at Belgaum.

Edited 15 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[caladonia]

Hello there

Here's a detail from a photo I found on the web, of two named members of the 9th Batt, photgraphed at Poona in 1917/18, showing s similar patch to your photo.

In the book WW1 British Battle Insgnia, the patch is shown as red.

William

[pearsonica]

Many thanks Guys. It’s amazing that I have many photos of the 9th Bat in Gallipoli and Mesopotamia and none have a clear patch on their Helmets. I only have a photo of their battle flag.

 

BIgs

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, pearsonica said:

Many thanks Guys. It’s amazing that I have many photos of the 9th Bat in Gallipoli and Mesopotamia and none have a clear patch on their Helmets. I only have a photo of their battle flag.

 

BIgs

In other photos of the battalion in routine working dress just the diamond flash is shown.  It’s clear that the badge was added for things like guard, drill order and walking out.