Michael Haselgrove Posted 12 December , 2012 Share Posted 12 December , 2012 Dear Members, I wonder if anyone can answer one or two questions for me. Some years ago I was given a collection of about ten initers. Almost all have been sectioned. I am attaching a photograph of three of them. They are all market R L (Royal Laboratory)with a broad arrow between the R and L. The top two are both marked I. The lower IV and V. Can anyone tell me with which gun(s) they were used? Also, in what circumstances would an electric igniter be used instead of the friction igniter which bears the same mark number. Many thanks in advance. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 13 December , 2012 Share Posted 13 December , 2012 Well, they weren't needed with any of the guns used in WW1. These used primers, either fitted in the base of the cart case for QF guns or put into the lock on the breech for BL. What you have would therefore belong in the era of muzzle loaders or possibly very early breech loaders. Electric ones would probably be used in coast guns and perhaps ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 13 December , 2012 Share Posted 13 December , 2012 I have found a few of the example shown top left on the Somme. Never realised they were marked. Cleaned one superficially yesterday and hey ho! saw marks. Will clean more thouroughly now and see what is revealed. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 13 December , 2012 Share Posted 13 December , 2012 I have to say that I am slightly puzzled by these T-piece igniters myself. The book says they were used with the older pieces, such as the 30 cwt 6-inch howitzer. However I have picked them up myself on Tara Hill on the Somme along with the brass covers from No.80 fuzes, clearly a battery position. Another was found in front of Messines ridge. I thought if they were only used with older pieces which were mostly leaving service by 1916, they wouldn't be so easy to find? Electrical igniters were used as an alternative to percussion in some guns, such as the 6-inch MK VII and in Naval and Coastal pieces, but also get a mention with the 30 cwt Howitzer. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 December , 2012 Share Posted 13 December , 2012 Well, they weren't needed with any of the guns used in WW1. These used primers, either fitted in the base of the cart case for QF guns or put into the lock on the breech for BL. What you have would therefore belong in the era of muzzle loaders or possibly very early breech loaders. Electric ones would probably be used in coast guns and perhaps ships. As previous posters have stated, the friction tubes were used in great numbers during the war. An typical example is one contract placed at the beginning of the war for 50,000 friction tubes at £5. 4s.0d per 100. Treatise on Ammunition 1915 gives plenty of detail on these. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 13 December , 2012 Share Posted 13 December , 2012 I was given to understand that the top left example was used in 60Ldr's, which by WW1 standards was a modern artillery piece. It was also used in the Garland mortar apparently. Going back to the Victorian Rifled Muzzel Loaders (RML's) all the igniter tubes I have found for them were simple copper tubes. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 13 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2012 Thanks very much for the responses. Most helpful. TonyE - I have ordered a copy of the Treatise on Ammunition 1915, something I should have done years ago! Sommewalker - I will lend you the Treatise once I have studied it. Regards, Michael H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 13 December , 2012 Share Posted 13 December , 2012 Treatise on Ammunition 1915 Available as a download CLICK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 14 December , 2012 Share Posted 14 December , 2012 Ah yes, UK called a Primer used in the lock of a BL ordnance breech a Tube, with Primer being limited to cartridges for QF breeches, US has always called both a Primer. Lock is of course as in matchlock or firelock. An Ignitor is a different thing although, it is the gunpowder bag attached to the base of the base charge in BL ammo to magnify the effect of the primer/tube. Interestingly the Treatise shows an ignitor in some QF cartridges. A practice that didn't last long as primers improved. The T shaped devices are not Ignitors they are old fashioned Tubes, which were replaced by ones that look like a rifle cartridge case and used today in BL 155mm and upwards. I'd be extremely surprised if any field artilery used electric tubes or primers. Basically this didn't occur untiul the 1960s and the 105mm L13 Ordnance. Before that it was limited to coast and naval guns that had the benefit of electrical power supply from big generators. Dry or wet batteries probably wouldn't produce the energy to reliably initiate a primer or tube. IIRC L13 uses some form of magneto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 14 December , 2012 Share Posted 14 December , 2012 Well originally I thought that the 60 pdr series did use friction tubes, but as the firing mechanism is listed as 'percussion' this seems to be wrong. For this reason I chose the 30cwt 6-inch howitzer for my example. Here the firing mechanism is shown as 'friction or electrical'. Clearly then the electrical tubes could used in these field pieces and had some sort of supply. It seems that mines were exploded using some sort magneto exploder set up and no doubt these would perform on electric tubes if required even if battery power was lacking. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 14 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2012 Having been put on the right track I find that the British "T" Friction Tube Mk IV, for BL guns, 1914 was used in the following: 12 pdr 6 cwt Gun. 15 pdr. 2.75" Mountain Gun. 5" Howitzer. 5.4" Howitzer. 6" 30 cwt Howitzer. My little collection of sectioned friction tubes includes a Mk IV (Star) and a photo is attached for those who may be interested. I am uncertain as to whether the earlier marks of "T" Friction Tubes were in use in 1914, but they are of identical dimensions so presumably would have been in use until stocks were exhausted. Again, thanks to all for your help. Regards, Michael H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 14 December , 2012 Share Posted 14 December , 2012 Michael - 1915 Treatise states that Tubes Mark III, III*, IV and IV* will be used with service ammunition and any previous marks used with blanks. REgards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 December , 2012 Share Posted 14 December , 2012 Having been put on the right track I find that the British "T" Friction Tube Mk IV, for BL guns, 1914 was used in the following: 12 pdr 6 cwt Gun. 15 pdr. 2.75" Mountain Gun. 5" Howitzer. 5.4" Howitzer. 6" 30 cwt Howitzer. All used in very small numbers (if at all - weren't the 5inch howitzers given to the Russians?) on the Western Front. - Which makes post 2 odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 15 December , 2012 Share Posted 15 December , 2012 All the guns and hows listed above were 19th C designs. However, T Tubes lasted a lot longer than I'd realised and were used in 20th C designs. Their replacement started after Messines and Arras where the 6-inch 30cwt Hows suffered high wear to their vents (ie the hole through the breech through which the tube sent its flash to the ignitor as the base of charge bag) and guns out of action for lack of spares. The new arrangement was rifle firing mechanism firing a smallarms cartridge, obviously without the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 15 December , 2012 Share Posted 15 December , 2012 Replacement of the 6 inch 30 Cwt actually started well over a year before this because their range on a field carriage was far too short. Replacement was very rapid. By the end of 1915 neary 700 of the new 6 inch 26 cwt howitzers were in service. I'm surprised that there were any 6 inch 30 cwt in service by Messines. The other guns on the list only went to France in very small numbers with the Territorials and all had been replaced by the end of 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 15 December , 2012 Share Posted 15 December , 2012 All the guns and hows listed above were 19th C designs. However, T Tubes lasted a lot longer than I'd realised and were used in 20th C designs. Their replacement started after Messines and Arras where the 6-inch 30cwt Hows suffered high wear to their vents (ie the hole through the breech through which the tube sent its flash to the ignitor as the base of charge bag) and guns out of action for lack of spares. The new arrangement was rifle firing mechanism firing a smallarms cartridge, obviously without the bullet. The firing system Nigel refers to using old rifle actions utilised a blank cartridge filled with blackpowder, the "Tube Percussion S.A. Cartridge, Mark I", and was introduced by List of Changes Paragraph 18970 of 1 August 1917. I will post a picture later. Prior to this guns fitted with axial vents and a percussion lock utilised a special cartridge about the size of a .303 inch blank but with a different rim and completely different internally. By 1915 the current version was the "Tube Vent Sealing Percussion Mark VII" (diagram attached). Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 16 December , 2012 Share Posted 16 December , 2012 Copying mistake, 26cwt not 30cwt. History of the Ministry Of Munitions, Part 1, Chap IV, sect IV Breech Mechanisms. Refers to 6-in 26cwt using T Tubes, and implies this was so with all other heavy artillery. It explicitly refers to 'rifle-firing mechanisms firing small arms cartridges'. It also refers to Royal Gun Factory and Maertini-Enfield designs of firing gear' I don't think the change from .5 to .303 occurred until mid WW2, with the adoption of the PK Lock. The 1941 Handbook for 4.5 inch Gun refers to Tube, vent, percussion, 0.5 inch'. But perhaps there was back and forth change. Interestingly the 1931 Handbook for 9.2 How includes; 'Means of ignition - Tube percussion, SA cartridge, or Tube, percussion T.' The 1935 HB for 60-pr is Tube percussion, SA cartridge as is 1932 for 8 inch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Sorry Nigel, I was actually agreeing with you that as well as the vent tubes, small arms type cartridges were used. This is an example of the special Mark I igniter blank, although dated post WWI. It is sealed with a shellaced cork wad Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 1 January , 2013 Share Posted 1 January , 2013 Well, I have found the definite answer Michael, at least in relation to the 60 pdr. Although this gun is listed in British Artillery Weapons and Ammunition 1914 - 18 as having percussion ignition and it does not appear in the lists as one using Friction Tubes, in the official Notes on the Ammunition for B.L. 60-PR. & Q.F. 4.7 inch guns, published in 1916, Page 7 deals with the 'TUBE, FRICTION, T. it states thst the 60 pdr is fired by means of a friction tube, which is inserted in the axial vent of the breech mechanism after the breech of the gun has been closed. Page 6 shows two views of the igniter, one sectioned, which are identical to the friction tube in your posted photos. This is confirmed by the locations in which I have found these pieces which were rather too far away to bring the enemy lines under effective field gun fire, but would have put them in range of the 60pdr. The older 4.7-inch gun however was fired by a Vent Sealing Percussion Tube which rather resembles a rimmed rifle cartridge and which is fitted into an adapter on the cartridge case and the breech closed. This has a percussion cap and a striker fired by a cocked striker in the breech mechanism. This shown in Post 17 by TonyE- Happy New Year - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 2 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2013 Sommewalker, Thanks very much to you, and everyone else, for all the information. Much appreciated and yes, a very happy new year to all. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now