jholl72 Posted 8 December , 2012 Share Posted 8 December , 2012 Hey guys, Trying to reseach this uniform and I cannot find an exact match for it. Canadian militia buttons, cuff rank, but it doesn't have a lapel collar to it and its a five button pattern. I've seen the style of collar closure before on eary pattern tunics but not in khaki. Anyone got an idea to what it is? pic hosting image hosting sites pics pics2 pics3 pics4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 December , 2012 Share Posted 8 December , 2012 That is the style of Service Dress (SD) collar worn by both, commissioned officers and warrant officers, from the introduction of SD in 1902, until modification to the collar was made to facilitate the wearing beneath of a soft collared shirt and tie, in 1908. After 1908 it continued in use by the warrant officers of infantry and cavalry only until around 1922 (+/-). The fifth (uppermost) button was removed as no longer necessary after the rever collar was introduced in 1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 8 December , 2012 Share Posted 8 December , 2012 The open neck collar was promulgated by AO279 of 1913.As the shoulder straps are not detachable (1901-1903) or twisted cord (1903-1904 as pattern, issued until 1907-1908), I'd say it's just around 1913. Shouldn't have had shoulder titles fitted, strictly speaking, but maybe that's a Canadian thing.Not unknown to see these style tunics in France in 1914, as the scramble to add manpower fast got underway.Cheers,GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 8 December , 2012 Share Posted 8 December , 2012 That is the style of Service Dress (SD) collar worn by both, commissioned officers and warrant officers, from the introduction of SD in 1902, until modification to the collar was made to facilitate the wearing beneath of a soft collared shirt and tie, in 1908. After 1908 it continued in use by the warrant officers of infantry and cavalry only until around 1922 (+/-). The fifth (uppermost) button was removed as no longer necessary after the rever collar was introduced in 1908. And 1921 or 22 was when, if I recall correctly (can't lay hands on the order), was when cuff rank itself was formally abolished. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 9 December , 2012 Share Posted 9 December , 2012 The open neck collar was promulgated by AO279 of 1913. As the shoulder straps are not detachable (1902-1904) or twisted cord (1904-1913), I'd say it's just around 1913 when the switch to sewn down shoulder straps took place (and before the collar change or the Canadians caught up with the regs!!). Shouldn't have had shoulder titles fitted, strictly speaking, but maybe that's a Canadian thing. Not unknown to see these style tunics in France in 1914, as the scramble to add manpower fast got underway... And 1921 or 22 was when, if I recall correctly (can't lay hands on the order), was when cuff rank itself was formally abolished. Curious, when was AO279 of 1913 published in 1913? As I have the following which says the change was sealed on the 19th August 1912, and just interested in the disparity of date (a minimum of about 4 1/2 months seems odd, unless it's simply preparing tailors and what not for the change well in advance): http://postimage.org/image/8fj3h5eyl/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 9 December , 2012 Share Posted 9 December , 2012 Hello jholl72 That cuff rank to me looks like the Maltese Cross of the Order of St John who were active in the great war and who also wore shoulder titles. I checked some of mine to be sure. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 9 December , 2012 Share Posted 9 December , 2012 Andrew, I think you are correct on the timing issue being notice to tailors. As a parallel example I have a copy (to accompany my original) of the RAF 1938 Dress regs that was in a tailors shop in Oxford which has hand notations to the summer of 1940 and a fall of 1940 official notice Air Ministry notice of details on the patterns of the newly introduced Aircrew Battledress uniforms which officially came into use in 1941. So what you have conjectured is entirely plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 December , 2012 Share Posted 9 December , 2012 And 1921 or 22 was when, if I recall correctly (can't lay hands on the order), was when cuff rank itself was formally abolished. Cheers, GT. Thank you, GT and Andrew, for correcting me re the date that the rever collar was introduced, I had not realised that it was as late as 1912/13, as I had seen some contemporary photos of officers with a rever collar (albeit higher cut than was later the norm) well before those dates. I imagine that perhaps some regiments had been modifying things unfofficially in certain circumstances, but it makes sense that the formal change in regulations was later than I thought. Very often it seems that regulations changed to catch up with the realities on the ground in relation to a number of matters regarding dress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 10 December , 2012 Share Posted 10 December , 2012 I have seen references that the open neck collar on khaki drill jackets was in use by some regiments in India as early as 1906 despite its official sanction only in 1913. Specific units of which I am aware who did this were the 1st Cameronians and 1st HLI. Officers of the 1st Cameronians dressed in a white shirt and black tie during this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jholl72 Posted 19 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 December , 2012 It finally arrived today. Here are a few more pics, not sure if the number in the sleeve is a service number, I've looked it up and there is one fella whose attestation papers indicate prior militia service, but still need to do some more digging. online photo storage image image ru free image hosting Last pics photo sharing sites image ru image sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jholl72 Posted 19 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Having a problem getting the last two pics to post. image ru image sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 I have seen references that the open neck collar on khaki drill jackets was in use by some regiments in India as early as 1906 despite its official sanction only in 1913. Specific units of which I am aware who did this were the 1st Cameronians and 1st HLI. Officers of the 1st Cameronians dressed in a white shirt and black tie during this period. Yes that makes sense, if I recall correctly the white shirt and black tie could be worn with both SD and the then new, open rever 'blue patrols', depending upon the order of dress. Interestingly the latter was, unlike for the Army, retained until the present day by officers of the Royal Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Yes that makes sense, if I recall correctly the white shirt and black tie could be worn with both SD and the then new, open rever 'blue patrols', depending upon the order of dress. Interestingly the letter was, unlike the for the Army, retained until the present day by officers of the Royal Marines. Which is actually stated at the bottom of the diagram I posted above: "Drab shirt and drab collar and tie worn with Drab Service Dress when on duty. White collar and shirt, and black corded tie silk tie when not on duty. White collar and shirt, and black corded tie silk tie, with Blue Serge Frock, Sailor Knot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Yes that makes sense, if I recall correctly the white shirt and black tie could be worn with both SD and the then new, open rever 'blue patrols', depending upon the order of dress. Interestingly the latter was, unlike for the Army, retained until the present day by officers of the Royal Marines. See example below of white shirt/ black tie worn with open collar blue patrol jacket. Photo taken December 1915 at Cameron Barracks, Inverness. Sitting on left is Col. Malcolm Riach, Depot CO. Believe the open collar patrol jacket was withdrawn in 1920s. Anyone have more specific knowledge on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon1357 Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Jeff you seem to get so many oddities. Buddy if I were you, give up and toss me the tunic....you have too many already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexflyer Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 No comment on the "pips" issue?? I agree with khaki that these do NOT look like regular "Bath star" pips, which would I think be a major issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 20 December , 2012 Share Posted 20 December , 2012 No comment on the "pips" issue?? I agree with khaki that these do NOT look like regular "Bath star" pips, which would I think be a major issue. What pips issue? From the pictures they look fine to me, and well within the multitudinous range of period variations that can be encountered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexflyer Posted 20 December , 2012 Share Posted 20 December , 2012 What pips issue? From the pictures they look fine to me, and well within the multitudinous range of period variations that can be encountered. See post #6 above. And that is the question - are these within the normal range, or something unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 20 December , 2012 Share Posted 20 December , 2012 See post #6 above. And that is the question - are these within the normal range, or something unusual. I stand by what I said - well within the normal range and nothing special in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 December , 2012 Share Posted 20 December , 2012 Andrew is right, they are not at all unusual for SD of that period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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