stephen binks Posted 6 December , 2012 Share Posted 6 December , 2012 Under what military law could a boy enlist in to the British army, and at what age? Would he have had to start as a bandsman? On the outbreak of war and under age (knowingly one assumes to his C/0) what would his roll be, assuming he remained at the depot? Thank you Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 6 December , 2012 Share Posted 6 December , 2012 Under-age boys were recruited as bandsmen (and I think they may also have been recruited as tailors etc) and could proceed on active duty with the battalion in war time - presumably whether they went or remained at the depot was a commanding officers decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlisonS Posted 17 December , 2012 Share Posted 17 December , 2012 I've found locally a boy who joined up at 15. He was listed as bandsman. When he reached 18 he requested to go into the ranks. He was killed towards the end of 1914. His father was a career soldier. Although believe the family originally came from Scotland, his father lived in Thorverton Devon when his son enlisted and had moved into Exeter by the time the son's medals were issued. From memory his father was a colour sgt with the Devonshire Reg. I also know of another who joined the RM in 1914, he was born 1899, was a buglar and award 1914 Star, Military Cross, Victory Medal, British War Medal. He didn't survive WW2 as he was killed in an air raid when on leave. Alison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 18 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Alison, The reason for the post was to try and understand how commanding officers could knowingly break military law by sending Regular underage soldiers to France in 1914. They would have known the boys age from his attestation papers from when the boy originally enlisted. A different situation to those boys who lied about their age to enlist from August 1914 onwards. The attached demonstrates the issue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Maybe he lied about his age anyway. Was the peacetime recruitment process any more stringent than in wartime? I note that his MIC says he died on 24 October 1914 Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 "Boy" was a rank which automatically became "Private" at official 18th birthday. "Drummer" and "Bugler" were appointments for Privates with extra pay [not band]. With exceptions, a man had to be 19 years old to go on active service at the beginning of the war. Boys knowingly enlisted as Boys had to provide birth cert. and parents'/ guardians' consent, and were trained as drummers [buglers in light infantry and rifles] or bandsmen or tailors. They were paid 8d per day [2/3 of adult pay]. Boys enlisting as men [lying about age] were stuck with their "official" birthday unless they became commissioned, when all was revealed. There was good reason to try to pass as men: extra pay, allowed to smoke, drink, curse and whore. The age on a headstone [like the other biographical material and dedication etc] was often provided by family, and always post-mortem of course. "Boys" trained as drummers, buglers or trumpeters [but not band or tailors] could go on active service at the discretion of the OC Unit and the medical officer. All the above applied to 4th Aug 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 18 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Grumpy, Thank you for your clear and concise answer. Would his parents be informed of the C/O's decision to allow the "boy" to serve overseas? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 18 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Maybe he lied about his age anyway. Was the peacetime recruitment process any more stringent than in wartime? I note that his MIC says he died on 24 October 1914 Martin Martin, From the location of his burial and the graves on either side, the MIC is incorrect. Many of the August 14 casualties have incorrect MIC information due to such a high proportion listed as "missing". You will see from the answer that Grumpy gave, that there was no opportunity or reason for Private Price to lie about his age. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Grumpy, Thank you for your clear and concise answer. Would his parents be informed of the C/O's decision to allow the "boy" to serve overseas? Steve I doubt it: there were more important things to do during mobilisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 "There was good reason to try to pass as men: extra pay, allowed to smoke, drink, curse and whore." Besides the pay issue, any restrictions on any vices a young lad may take at the pre and great war time scale? A moral issue or law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 "There was good reason to try to pass as men: extra pay, allowed to smoke, drink, curse and whore." Besides the pay issue, any restrictions on any vices a young lad may take at the pre and great war time scale? A moral issue or law? The sergeant drummer was required to ensure that his boys did not oath publicly, and did not indulge in tobacco or drink in the units for which I have SOs. As for whoring, have you ever tried to stop a 17 year-old from getting his leg over at every opportunity. Quite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Steve Two accounts of men who enlisted 'underage' are: Scarlet Fever by John Cusack and Ivor Herbert and Tickled To Death To Go edited by Richard van Emden. I suspect that a lot more similar accounts exist but these two are in my collection and are well worth reading. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 19 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Garth, Thank you for the pointer. I have read Richard's book, "Boy Soldiers", but not the one you mention. I perfectly understand how underage boys could enlist in to the service battalions etc, but as previously stated my interest is driven by commanding officers of regular battalions knowingly allowing underage boys to embark for France in August 1914! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 Garth, Thank you for the pointer. I have read Richard's book, "Boy Soldiers", but not the one you mention. I perfectly understand how underage boys could enlist in to the service battalions etc, but as previously stated my interest is driven by commanding officers of regular battalions knowingly allowing underage boys to embark for France in August 1914! Steve So, let me see if I understand: other than boys permitted under mobilisation regs 1914, you believe COs of regular units knowingly allowed boys [or indeed men under 19?] to go overseas in August 1914? So, in the tradition of this forum, can you prove that? And, I would add, even if there are some cases, where on a scale of 1 to 10 would you rate this as an offence [moral or criminal] for an army about to commit to a major European War? Finally, have you ANY idea what the early days of August 1914 were like for COs, Adjutants, QMs, RSMs and ORQMSs? If not, read "The War the Infantry Knew" by Dr Dunn, first couple of chapters. Reservists were pouring in, deserters were returning, wives were demanding their rights, there were deficiencies in machine-guns, horse transport [60 horses for each battalion], medicals to arrange, the colours and the silver to store .............. like moving house for 1000 people at very short notice with about 1/3 of the family turning up on the doorstep having been away for a few years and demanding a meal and clothing ................ I reckon taking an under-age is about a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 20 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2012 Grumpy, The point I am trying to make is that so much care was taken when recruiting boys post war (parents permission, birth certificate etc) that on the outbreak of war all this seemed to go out the window. I am not for one minute criticising the roll of the Commanding officer - no, I cannot imagine what his job must have been like - I am merely stating a fact that underage boys were "permitted under mobilisation regs 1914" (your words) to go to war in August 1914. My initial topic was placed on the suprise of seeing Private Price (age 16) buried in Cuesmes Communal cemetery. I had never seen "an Old Contemptible" aged 16 and wondered how he managed to get to France. Your initial response answered my question. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 20 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2012 Grumpy, I am sorry the penny has just dropped..... You think I was inferring that C/O's were pushing boys (perhaps against their will) to war? If my post gave that impression then I am sorry Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 20 December , 2012 Share Posted 20 December , 2012 Hello Steve, Garth mentioned Tickled To Death To Go edited by Richard van Emden in #12. In this, Ben Clouting of the 4th Dragoon Guards talks about how he managed to go to war when underage, as part of the BEF's Cavalry Division, leaving on August 14th 1914. To cut a long (and very interesting) story short, having been in training for a year when the news that war had broken out reached Tidworth Ben couldn't believe that he was not on the list of those set to leave for France. He was bitterly disappointed and later went back to the list and rubbed out the bottom name and wrote his own. He did this twice before the sergeant took him to the Captain who pointed out that he was underage. (He was still 16 years old). Ben protested and having threatened to abscond and reach France some other way he finally persuaded the Captain to allow him to go. "Fair enough, it's against my wishes but you shall come." In fact Ben did very well so it was not a mistake to allow him to go. As I said, this is a very brief summary. This is one of my favourite books, although I understand it is difficult to come by. CGM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 20 December , 2012 Admin Share Posted 20 December , 2012 Steve What, I think, Grumpy was trying to say that for a soldier to be in France in August 1914, he must have already been serving therefore with the recruitment oppotunities existing for boys in a peacetime arny, there was little reason to fraudulently enlist. It is likely there will be some but if you are looking for the "Come back tommorow when your 19" type of enlistment, you need to look after August 1914. Some may have made it to France for Neuve Chapelle/Aubers/Festubert but Loos is the first real battle where under aged boys were involved in large numbers. To add to CGM's post, another book worth reading is Boy Soldiers also by Richead van Emden. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 December , 2012 Share Posted 21 December , 2012 Steve What, I think, Grumpy was trying to say that for a soldier to be in France in August 1914, he must have already been serving therefore with the recruitment oppotunities existing for boys in a peacetime arny, there was little reason to fraudulently enlist. It is likely there will be some but if you are looking for the "Come back tommorow when your 19" type of enlistment, you need to look after August 1914. Some may have made it to France for Neuve Chapelle/Aubers/Festubert but Loos is the first real battle where under aged boys were involved in large numbers. To add to CGM's post, another book worth reading is Boy Soldiers also by Richead van Emden. Glen I don't very often need an interpreter, but, YES! To go even further: two sorts of young men under 19 could legally be sent in August 1914: those enlisted as boys and appointed drummer etc and those who lied about their age on enlistment and who were therefore officially 19 and over. Either way "the authorities" have no case to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 21 December , 2012 Share Posted 21 December , 2012 As for whoring, have you ever tried to stop a 17 year-old from getting his leg over at every opportunity. Quite! I was that 17 year old! Thank you Grumpy, "those who lied about their age on enlistment and who were therefore officially 19 and over." I think this is where a lot of the problems arise. Young lads would clearly lie to obtain the adult rate of pay. In peacetime not much of a problem. The start of the war altered this. They had stated 19 or older. Going to war, could not exactly cry off. Had taken the pay of a man, rank of "man". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 December , 2012 Share Posted 21 December , 2012 And most "19 year-olds" are up for a fight, as well as a legover, so, no probs! Reading accounts of the mindset, they were indeed keen not to be left behind. For a regular soldier, war represented [and still does] the prospect of travel, glory, advancement, and loot. Only veterans added "lice, cold, hunger, disease, wounds, death" to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 22 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2012 Hello Steve, Garth mentioned Tickled To Death To Go edited by Richard van Emden in #12. In this, Ben Clouting of the 4th Dragoon Guards talks about how he managed to go to war when underage, as part of the BEF's Cavalry Division, leaving on August 14th 1914. To cut a long (and very interesting) story short, having been in training for a year when the news that war had broken out reached Tidworth Ben couldn't believe that he was not on the list of those set to leave for France. He was bitterly disappointed and later went back to the list and rubbed out the bottom name and wrote his own. He did this twice before the sergeant took him to the Captain who pointed out that he was underage. (He was still 16 years old). Ben protested and having threatened to abscond and reach France some other way he finally persuaded the Captain to allow him to go. "Fair enough, it's against my wishes but you shall come." In fact Ben did very well so it was not a mistake to allow him to go. As I said, this is a very brief summary. This is one of my favourite books, although I understand it is difficult to come by. CGM. CGM Thank you for your brief resume of this book; sounds worth getting a copy! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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