JesseM88 Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 I'm wondering if anyone can explain what the insignia mean in my attached photo with the numbers and boxes I added. 1. Why does he have the little crown above his Sergeant stripes where as no one else does? Is this because he is a Sergeant Major? 2. I was under the impression that the little crown was the Officer's Pip for a Major? But this man is pictured with only NCO's (I have a series of these photo's with Commissioned and Non-Commissioned Officers pictured together and separately), and his tunic is not that of an Officer. 3. I didn't highlight this, but my Great-Grandfather is seated second from right. He is the only one with the Sergeant stripes on one side rather than both. I've always assumed this was just owing to shortages and delays in getting the second set of chevron's, but would there be another explanation? I was going to post the original-sized photo which is of very high quality, but the file is huge and I'd rather not have the page take 10 minutes to load. Thanks for any help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 1) Not necessarily. The rank would actually be dependant on date - in most regiments, in 1914 the crown worn above Sergeants stripes on the upper arm would denote a Company Sergeant Major or Company Quarter Master Sergeant, by 1915 this would be the CQMS or a Colour Sergeant. Given the men are all wearing the Tam'O'Shanter (introduced in 1915), he is most likely a CSM or RQMS. 2) As demonstrated in 1), certain NCO's also utilised the crown as part of their visible rank. Again, the rank would actually be dependant on date - in most regiments, in 1914 the crown on the lower sleeve would denote a RSM, by 1915 this would be the RQMS or a CSM, and by 1918 it was only worn by the CSM. With the TOS again, he is most likely a RQMS or CSM (senior to the chap in 1 from appearances). 3) Wearing rank only on the right is very common in certain forms of army dress, the Khaki Drill tropical uniforms for example. This seems to spill over into Service Dress without known rhyme or reason. Shortages of supplies is just one of the possible reasons that can be put forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 2 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Thank for the info, Andrew. If it helps, I'm fairly certain that this photo was taken in later-1916, probably October just before the 8th Black Watch went into action for their second stint in the Somme. I have family photo's of my Great-Grandfather from early-1917 in which he finally has chevron's on both arms, as well as what I think is the silver thistle of his division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexflyer Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Thank for the info, Andrew. If it helps, I'm fairly certain that this photo was taken in later-1916, probably October just before the 8th Black Watch went into action for their second stint in the Somme. The photograph has to be after August `1916, when "wound stripes" were introduced - you can see several in the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 2 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2012 The photograph has to be after August `1916, when "wound stripes" were introduced - you can see several in the photo. Oh wow, that helps a lot in confirming for me when my set of photo's were taken. Were the wound stripes optional? I'm assuming they couldn't be retrospectively awarded for wounds received earlier than the Somme in 1916? My Great-Grandfather was wounded in 1914 but there is virtually nothing official left that provides any details of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 I'm assuming they couldn't be retrospectively awarded for wounds received earlier than the Somme in 1916? My Great-Grandfather was wounded in 1914 but there is virtually nothing official left that provides any details of it. Originally after introduction they were only awarded retrospectively for wounds received during the war (each occasion wounded rather than number of wounds - get hit by three pieces of shrapnel over the course of one day but in different places, tough luck, one stripe). Much later on as the qualifications were broadened wounds in earlier conflicts were recognized as well if they otherwise met the same criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 2 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2012 ...each occasion wounded rather than number of wounds - get hit by three pieces of shrapnel over the course of one day but in different places, tough luck, one stripe... Wow, I feel like that kind of misfortune is worthy of a DSO! Most Conspicuous Lack of Luck Under Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 December , 2012 Share Posted 5 December , 2012 I agree with all that Andrew has said regarding badges of rank, whilst adding that the size of crown was significant in 1914. At that early period a large crown was worn above the chevrons by both CQMS and CSM. When the changes occured in 1915 a smaller crown was stipulated for Colour Sergeants and CSMs wore the same large crown that had previously been worn above the chevrons but instead positioned on their forearms. As regards sergeants chevrons on just the right arm, in some units this was the manner by which they identified Lance Sergeants from full Sergeants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 7 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2012 I agree with all that Andrew has said regarding badges of rank, whilst adding that the size of crown was significant in 1914. At that early period a large crown was worn above the chevrons by both CQMS and CSM. When the changes occured in 1915 a smaller crown was stipulated for Colour Sergeants and CSMs wore the same large crown that had previously been worn above the chevrons but instead positioned on their forearms. As regards sergeants chevrons on just the right arm, in some units this was the manner by which they identified Lance Sergeants from full Sergeants. Interesting. In the case of my Great-Grandfather, all surviving records just list him as going from Private right to Sergeant. As an acting-CSM when he died, I don't believe he had any new insignia. The last photo's of him before he died show chevron's on both sleeves as well as what looks to me like the the 9th Division silver thistle. My avatar pic is an example of this, as well the attached photo of this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 December , 2012 Share Posted 8 December , 2012 And a nice shot of Pipe Major seated extreme right of photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 10 December , 2012 Share Posted 10 December , 2012 And a nice shot of Pipe Major seated extreme right of photo. Yes, and a glimpse of his Royal Stuart tartan kilt can just barely be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 11 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2012 Thanks for the responses guys. For anyone interested, here's a shot of the actual silver thistle of the 9th Division (the one on the sleeve of my GGF). I saw this one in the Somme 1916 Museé in Albert, and was quite excited to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 December , 2012 Share Posted 11 December , 2012 .... the one on the sleeve of my GGF ... Sleeve or breast pocket flap? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 12 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2012 Sleeve or breast pocket flap? Cheers, Mark The sleeves. I really don't know for sure what that thing is on his breast pocket, but my two theories are: clasp for a pocket watch, or clasp for his 1914 Star (although I thought those weren't distributed until after the war?) Probably just a pocket watch: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 December , 2012 Share Posted 12 December , 2012 Do you mean the object immediately above the chevrons on upper arm? Isn't that his CSM crown? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseM88 Posted 13 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2012 Do you mean the object immediately above the chevrons on upper arm? Isn't that his CSM crown? Cheers, Mark Regarding the object above the Chevron's, you may be correct. I've always assumed it was most likely his Divisional symbol. But then again, I'm fairly certain that the 9th Division didn't actually adopt the thistle as their official symbol until 1918, but that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't using it unofficially beforehand. Unfortunately there aren't any photos where the thing is clear enough. It's times like this I really wish his service record still existed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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