centurion Posted 23 November , 2012 Share Posted 23 November , 2012 Some time ago I posted a copy ot this photo of my Grandfather Fusilier W F Wood 25306 10th RDF. I am posting it again in the larger size now possible. Part of the original question was why was he wearing overseas service chevrons on the wrong sleeve. I have now discovered the original copy amongst my mother's papers and the writing on the back allows the date to be worked out. It is pre August 1916 before his battalion went to France (and he entered a theatre of war) and long before such stripes were introduced. The writing states that he is "serving on the Somme" He was on the Somme from August until the end of November when the remains of the Battalion were pulled back to Noyelles sur Mer after suffering 50% casualties at the Battle of the Ancre. When the 10th RDF went back into line in Jan 1917 he did not go with them having contracted trench Fever and was sent back to Dublin where he was eventually discharged sick in the spring of 1917. The photo would therefore have been taken in Dublin in 1916. Given that he had enlisted in the second half of 1915 in a volunteer unit (this subsequently becoming the nucleus of he 10th RDF) and in the photo he is wearing what looks like a very new good conduct sripe I would conclude that the photo was taken in Late July or early August 1916 some months after the Battalion had fought in the Rising (re taking Dublin Castle) and just before they left for France. Overseas service stripes were constituted in Jan 1918 by which time he had been discharged for over 6 months and working as an organist at St. Mark's C o I in Portadown. These cannot therefore be overseas service stripes - so what are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 23 November , 2012 Share Posted 23 November , 2012 Even stranger if he enlisted 8th Nov. 1915 and you think the photo was taken July/August 1916 that he is wearing a good conduct stripe. Something is wrong. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 23 November , 2012 Share Posted 23 November , 2012 There are two possibilities here as I see it. Either your GF, who would have kept his uniform on discharge, posed in it sometime after OS chevrons were issued, presumably quite soon after as he has put them on the wrong sleeve, and he or someone else has written a slightly inaccurate statement on the back; or, here is a badge confusingly similar to OS chevrons and whose existence had hitherto escaped everybody's attention. I find the first option more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2012 There are two possibilities here as I see it. Either your GF, who would have kept his uniform on discharge, posed in it sometime after OS chevrons were issued, presumably quite soon after as he has put them on the wrong sleeve, and he or someone else has written a slightly inaccurate statement on the back; or, here is a badge confusingly similar to OS chevrons and whose existence had hitherto escaped everybody's attention. I find the first option more likely. Very unlikely given the nature of the writing which appears to be in my grandmothers hand. As his parents were dead it is very likely that he gave her the photo before leaving for France when they were courting. It is very definitely in the present tense. I can think of no reason why a church organist would sew stripes on his old uniform (and where would he have got them from) and pose in it months after returning to civvy street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 23 November , 2012 Share Posted 23 November , 2012 So where did the good conduct stripe come from? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 25 November , 2012 Share Posted 25 November , 2012 Looking at the cap there appears to be a number of rows of stitching visible around the band- trench cap as opposed to a stiff cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 25 November , 2012 Share Posted 25 November , 2012 Silly I know but possible ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 26 November , 2012 Share Posted 26 November , 2012 Silly I know but possible ? Except his jacket now buttons the "wrong" way, and the LSGC stripe is on the wrong sleeve... Dave's post adds a good point - if the cap is a trench cap it must post-date March 1916 when they were introduced. If the photo is supposedly pre-August 1916 that gives an even more narrow margin. And none of that fits with him having a LSGC stripe at that time. I think Wainfleet nailed it - photo is 1918 or later and after discharge, which would account for the LSGC stripe, the overseas service chevrons (on the wrong sleeve, as he now doesn't have any RSM types to "correct" him), and the caption on the back is just wrong. Photos exist of discharged civilians with SWB, wounded stripes and overseas service chevrons up on civvy clothing (see below), so it is well within the realms of possibility they were still being issued to those entitled even after leaving the service, and may have been seen as part of the package showing a man had done his bit. There is a very similarly confusing photo of Frank Richards which has been posted before that was taken after his discharge and shows him with his medals up and a similar pseudo-military uniform. Just part of the standard of the day. http://postimage.org/image/az7vw100f/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2012 it is well within the realms of possibility they were still being issued to those entitled even after leaving the service, and may have been seen as part of the package showing a man had done his bit. Do you have any "official" evidence of this? I cannot see how it would work. The actual writing on the back in the address section (it's printed on a postcard) is William Fredrick Wood 10th Batt Royal Dublin Fusiliers Royal Barracks Dublin On Active Service Somme France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 26 November , 2012 Share Posted 26 November , 2012 Do you have his service records? They do not say what he may have gone through whilst serving overseas and in no way diminishes his contribution but his times are; Home 8th Nov. 1915 to 18th Aug. 1916 BEF 19th Aug. 1916 to 7th Jan. 1917 Home 8th Jan 1917 to 6 June 1917 How do you explain both the overseas and good conduct stripes? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2012 Do you have his service records? They do not say what he may have gone through whilst serving overseas and in no way diminishes his contribution but his times are; Home 8th Nov. 1915 to 18th Aug. 1916 BEF 19th Aug. 1916 to 7th Jan. 1917 Home 8th Jan 1917 to 6 June 1917 How do you explain both the overseas and good conduct stripes? Kevin As I said in the OP he was in France long enough to take part in the Battle of the Ancre. His battalion suffered very heavy casualties in that and were sent to the coast to recover and rebuild. Whilst there he contracted trench fever (there seems to have been an outbreak in the camp) and was sent back to Dublin when the battalion went back into line. He was discharged unfit in June 1917 and appears to have remained so for a while before taking up a post as an organist and choir master. His illness kept coming back until he died in 1939 I can't explain that's the reason for the post if you read the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 26 November , 2012 Share Posted 26 November , 2012 He was not in service long enough to receive a good conduct chevron, and he did not serve overseas for 2 years. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 November , 2012 Share Posted 26 November , 2012 "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? Tardis! The jacket might well belong to someone else, but the annotation in present tense is the crippler here. Tardis. Seriously, I am giving the matter more thought than is good for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 26 November , 2012 Share Posted 26 November , 2012 The caption on the card is not necessarily in the present tense. It tells us that he's been at the barracks in Dublin and has served in France on the Somme. It could be read as meaning that he is currently in France; equally, it might mean that this is where he was at some point during the war. We don't know. It can't, however, be considered to prove he was in France when it was taken. The GC chevron is a bit misleading in that these were sometimes unofficially awarded at battalion level sooner than the correct qualifying date. What he is undoubtedly wearing, however, is two overseas service chevrons. They cannot be anything else, since there was no other badge on issue at the time that looks like them. Grumpy would certainly know of it, I think I would know of it, and dozens of other people on the GWF who have looked at literally thousands of photos would also know of it. Therefore this photograph was taken in 1918, or perhaps 1919. If this man had been discharged by then, I refer to my explanation in Post 3. As for the blue chevrons, he could have bought them from a tailor's shop and sewed them on himself. There may have been occasions when he found it politic to wear his uniform in public, especially if the war was not yet over, and perhaps he felt like displaying the distinctions he was entitled to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 26 November , 2012 Share Posted 26 November , 2012 If he served part of 1916 and part of 1917 would that not have qualified him for overseas service chevrons. Were they not awarded for service during a given year admittedly 1917 is a bit skimpy but he was there. Photo could well have been at a later date,john PS i am allready ducking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexflyer Posted 27 November , 2012 Share Posted 27 November , 2012 Well Centurion, I see that my grannie and your granddad were on opposite sides of the fence. I shall try to overlook this flaw in your pedigree As for the photo, how about the following scenario: As others have suggested, it is 1918 or 19. Your grandfather is out of the British Army. However, his service in the army has made an enormous impact on him, for life. He would like a memento of his service, but he does not have a good photograph. So, he goes and gets one taken. But it is not meant to represent him as of 1918 or 1919 - he has been invalided out, and is back on civvy street. No, the photo is very deliberately meant - for him - to represent himself when he was serving. So he puts on his uniform again, which either the depot or a tailor has enhanced with the latest gizmo's. In this spirit, he gets the photo/card printed with his main areas of service, as part of the occupation forces and in France. Your grandmother, in the same spirit, or just to conform to the same style, also uses the present tense - or perhaps it is meant as a continuing tense. This is meant to represent him "serving on the Somme." Makes any sense to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 27 November , 2012 Share Posted 27 November , 2012 Well Centurion, I see that my grannie and your granddad were on opposite sides of the fence. I shall try to overlook this flaw in your pedigree Steady!! Centurion's ancestor was a pal of the guy mentioned at the end of this post, yet my grandmother was on the same side as yours. I regularly mull over which side of the "fence" I would have been on if I were around then... Still don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 27 November , 2012 Share Posted 27 November , 2012 "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? I would go along with wexflyer's explanation in post 16. Either he or the tailor sewed the overseas chevrons on the wrong sleeve. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now