Royal Fusilier epaulette insignia

[Jim Hastings]

Hi All,

Just after some confirmation really please - I know the Royal Fusiliers wore 'RF' with 'flaming bomb/grenade' above metal insignia on their epaulettes but did they wear battalion numbers above that does anyone know? Thinking more of the Service Bns I think

If so has anyone got any photographic evidence for this that they would not mind sharing please?

Many thanks

Jim

[FROGSMILE]

Hi All,

Just after some confirmation really please - I know the Royal Fusiliers wore 'RF' with 'flaming bomb/grenade' above metal insignia on their epaulettes but did they wear battalion numbers above that does anyone know? Thinking more of the Service Bns I think

If so has anyone got any photographic evidence for this that they would not mind sharing please?

Many thanks

Jim

Jim, early in the war a plain universal grenade above the title RF was used by regulars, and service battalions with no 'special' secondary title. Special unit's, such as the Sportsmen's Battalions, had that special title in addition. Territorial Force (TF) battalions only, had numbers too up until the compulsory military registration act of 1916, after which date the T and number previously worn by TF soldiers was no longer relevant (and thus not required), as men who were conscripted could be sent to any 'type' of battalion, including TF. From around 1916 (from memory) most of the regular battalions started to wear a one piece title of a special regimental grenade with rose embossed and the letters RF conjoined. However, TF and Service battalions often continued to wear the plain universal grenade and title.

[Jim Hastings]

Brilliant, thank you Frogsmile, I have seen the conjoined samples and wondered when they arose, so a double thank you! So would the 17th have had 'Empire' included somewhere in their titling?

Great, cheers

Jim

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant, thank you Frogsmile, I have seen the conjoined samples and wondered when they arose, so a double thank you! So would the 17th have had 'Empire' included somewhere in their titling?

Great, cheers

Jim

I cannot recall if the 17th had the words 'Empire' as a part of their shoulder title (ST), but the sportsmen's did, as mentioned above, so it is quite feasible. I do not have access to Ray Westlake's book on STs where I currently am located, but hopefully another forum member will.

Interestingly the late Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery commanded the 17th Battalion in 1919 (his parent unit was the Royal Warwickshire Regt) and later in life he was the influence behind the merger of that latter regiment into the Fusilier Brigade (as the last line regiment ever converted to fusiliers) and subsequently as part of the new 'large' regiment as 4th Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

You can read about the regiment's (and 17th battalion's) service here: http://archive.org/s...age/n9/mode/2up (see page 13 and 14)

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Frogsmile,

Funnily enough I was in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment museum about ten years ago, passing the time while my good lady attended a work conference up in the region, and over heard two former Royal Warwicks also there conversing about how betrayed/annoyed they felt that Monty had sold the Regt out to the Fusiliers. It always stuck with me and a few weeks ago I found a photo of Monty as CO of the 17th with his officers and suddenly it all fell into place ... the fusiliers must have had a profound effect on him.

Think I need to invest in some insignia books, as I'm increasingly finding myself wondering "well what did they wear ..."

Thanks for your help again, will keep my eye out for a 17th ST

All the best

Jim

[Donald D]

There is a photograph from the IWM, Q.777, which shows the return from a trench raid, in 1916, of the 13th RF. It clearly shows a man sitting at the front with RF on the front edge of his epaulettes. Just above is the No 13 and just above that is the Grenade. This is on his right shoulder. Another man further back shows the same on his left shoulder. Don't think there was much more room for other service battalions of the RF to include their name, but I stand to be corrected....

[FROGSMILE]

There is a photograph from the IWM, Q.777, which shows the return from a trench raid, in 1916, of the 13th RF. It clearly shows a man sitting at the front with RF on the front edge of his epaulettes. Just above is the No 13 and just above that is the Grenade. This is on his right shoulder. Another man further back shows the same on his left shoulder. Don't think there was much more room for other service battalions of the RF to include their name, but I stand to be corrected....

The enclosed image shows how the Sportsmen's battalions (Service Battalions) wore their shoulder title below the plain universal grenade. I have never seen anything similar for the 'Empire' battalion and personally do not believe it likely that they existed.

[gordon92]

Scan from Westlake plate 51 below. No mention of the SPORTMANS titles being worn with the grenade.

Also from Westlake regarding Service Battalions' titles: For the most part shoulder titles, if worn at all, were those of the regular battalions. However, some units did adopt special patterns and those known have been noted.

[FROGSMILE]

Scan from Westlake plate 51 below. No mention of the SPORTMANS titles being worn with the grenade.

Also from Westlake regarding Service Battalions' titles: For the most part shoulder titles, if worn at all, were those of the regular battalions. However, some units did adopt special patterns and those known have been noted.

I had hoped someone would have access to Westlake's book. It would be great (not to mention evidentially decisive) to see photos of the Sportsmen's battalions shoulders to clarify what they actually wore. Although nothing is impossible and I retain an open mind, I would be very surprised indeed if the battalions did not wear universal grenades below the title, as the grenade 'emblem' was so central to, and symbolic of, the title, traditions and ethos that all fusilier regiments shared.

[Donald D]

Thanks Gordon92 and Frogsmile for the examples shown, especially for the Sportsmans Battalions. My Grandfather was in the 2nd Sportsmans Battalion, the 24th RF. As from the Westlake scan it would seem that each Sportmans Battalion, 23rd & 24th RF, had its own title, 799 and 801, but that the 23rd had possibly a later version, 800. Is this possibly when each battalion had to have non original members sent to them and only original members retained the 1st or 2nd Battalion titles? As Frogsmile said it would be good to see original photos. I have looked through "Hard as Nails" but no photos seem to exist of closeups of shoulder titles.

[Jim Hastings]

Dear all,

Many thanks for posting the examples, great to see. Maybe the 17th didn't have a 'Empire' titling Frogsmile - maybe the Sportsmans was from private sponsership? I know many of the RF had benefactors - 10th, 11th, 17th and Sportsmans so maybe some chose to purchase bespoke insignia on the original formation. As mentioned above need some closer photo examples. Have none for 17th (so far) sadly. Keep looking though.

Thanks to all for your imput, learned a lot

Cheers

Jim

[FROGSMILE]

I think it highly likely that 1st and 2nd Sportsmen's initially wore their 3 row title above a plain grenade, but that as the impracticality of this became apparent they switched to one piece, conjoined titles. Perhaps we will be able to see some photographs of the battalions titles in use at some point.