Could this identify the burial of soldier with no known grave?

[JMButchart]

This post concerns Private 3835 , Walter Tidey, Hertfordshire Regiment, listed on the War Memorial in Shenley, Hertfordshire, where I live, and on the Loos Memorial.

I have studied his surviving Service Records on Ancestry.com and found different accounts of his fate in his Statement of Services (image marked 0683, no. 1660 in the Ancestry series) and his Casualty Form - Active Service (image marked 0687, no. 1663 in the Ancestry series).

The former records him missing and then dead on 30 July 1916. The latter gives a different account. After “Reverts to Private on compln. of duty, 11.7.16”, it says “Attached to Gloucester Regt.,11.7.16” and then “11.8.16, 8 Glos Regt., Missing” and finally “15.1.17, H.Q. 151 Inf Bde, Buried at S.3.c.10 (Map 57.c. S.W.).”

The account in his Statement of Services is consistent with the report of his presumed death in the Herts Advertiser 24/02/1917, which includes: "Mrs Tidey, of Shenley, has been informed that her youngest son, Corpl. W. J. Tidey, of the Hertfordshire Regiment, who has been missing since July 1916, is officially held to be dead. It appears that he took part in a night attack “somewhere in France” in that month and was seen by a comrade to fall, but nothing more has been heard of him, nor was his body found."

Also perhaps consistent are these entries from the 1916 War Diary of the Hertfordshire Regiment:

19-7-16. A party of about 3 Officers and 60 OR's raided the enemy's trenches at 10.40pm. The part of the trench that was raided had been evacuated by the Germans. The party was in the trenches for 10 minutes as arranged but was bombed from the support line. No prisoners were taken. Our casualties on the evening of the raid were 3 Officers wounded, 3 OR's killed, 1 OR missing, 12 OR's wounded.

24-7-16. The Bn were relieved by the 12th Royal Sussex and marched to billets near GORRE having had 16 days in the trenches. Casualties for this period; 1 Officer (Lieut. Veere Smith [John Veere SMITH]) died of wounds, 7 Officers wounded (Captain W.L. Grice [William Lucas GRICE], Lieut. L.G. Gold [Leslie G. GOLD, MC & Bar] (slight), Captain C.F. Hacker [Charles Frederick HACKER, MC, RAMC] (at duty), 2/Lieut. J.W. Smith [John W. SMITH], Lieut. R.P. Loyd [Reginald Percy LOYD], 2/Lieut. W.F. Francis [Wilfred Frederick FRANCIS, MC], Captain B.C. Molony [brian Charles MOLONY]). 11 OR killed, 1 OR missing, 38 OR's wounded including two Company Sgt. Majors.

I've not found an online transcription of a Gloucester Regiment war diary.

I am not very experienced in reading and understanding these service records and would be grateful for any advice, comments and better transcription than I have managed.

I do not know what to make of the difference in these records. Should I be satisfied that the last entries in Casualty Form refer to Walter Tidey? Do records, such as the map specified, or records of re-burials, survive from which Walter Tidey's grave might be identified? I have also addressed this question to CWGC.

I have downloaded images of the two records, but they are much too big to attach.

[IPT]

Hi there,

I'm certainly no expert, but on the casualty form on image 1663, the columns on the left refer to date reported and by whom.

So on 11/8/1916 it was reported by 8 Glos Rgt that he was missing on 30/7/1916. (so far so good). On 15/1/1916 151st Infantry Bde HQ reported his burial and location, but give the date of 26/9/1916. That's the only date i'm not sure about.

Of course, many men had known grave locations that were later obliterated.

[centurion]

Hi there,

I'm certainly no expert, but on the casualty form on image 1663, the columns on the left refer to date reported and by whom.

So on 11/8/1916 it was reported by 8 Glos Rgt that he was missing on 30/7/1916. (so far so good). On 15/1/1916 151st Infantry Bde HQ reported his burial and location, but give the date of 26/9/1916. That's the only date i'm not sure about.

Of course, many men had known grave locations that were later obliterated.

Isn't that 15/1/1917 not 16? If so all the dates make sense. Went missing, body found and identified later as ground was taken, buried but grave since lost.

[IPT]

Ah yes. Sorry, that's 15/1/1917.

[JMButchart]

I'm most grateful to Brigadier-General for pointing out that "8 Glos Regt" reported him missing on 30.7.16, agreeing with the Statement of Services. I'd stupidly missed that date. It does help having someone else look at what I've been staring at for ages.

Also, I've since found the www.glosters.org.uk website and made a search for Walter Tidey. Amazingly, they do have a record:

Tidey, Walter J - Statement of Service Surname: Tidey Initials: WJT First Name: Walter Rank: Corporal SERVICE DETAILS Battalion: 8 Company: X Ex-number: 003835 Ex-unit: 1 HERTS REGT

In principle, if the 8th battalion of the Gloucesters have left a diary, I could find out what they were doing on July 30th.

[Phil Evans]

The war diary for the 8th Battalion is held at Kew in WO 95/2085 and is available for download.

Click here

Phil

[JMButchart]

My thanks to everyone for all the help. I've now got the war diary of the 8th battalion, Gloucestershires. Sure enough there is an entry on July 13th 1916 "Draft of 123 other ranks arrived from 1st Herts."

And on July 30th, 6:10 pm at Bazentin-le-Petit "Attacked the German intermediate line, A & B Coys in front line, C & D Coys in second line. Our attack was held up by enfilade Machine Gun fire and concealed snipers from the right. Our men returned to their original front line at 9.30 p.m. Casualties officers 8 killed, 3 wounded, 3 missing. The C.O. Major Thyme was wounded in the body while urging on the second line. Other ranks 160."

I see now that the two records are not inconsistent. The Casualty Form is just more detailed. I'd like to follow up what the Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum have about Walter Tidey some time.

I will post the reply I receive from the CWGC to my enquiry about the grave reference.

[JMButchart]

The McMaster University website http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm has trench maps and explains how to use the map references which were used. There are a few 1916 maps available covering Bazentin-le-Petit, High Wood etc (e.g. Combles 1916 071WW1MAP.sid) , and the reference "S.3.c.10" on "Map 57.c.SW" now makes perfect sense to me. It points to an area 50 yards x 50 yards about 500 yards along and then about 120 yards south of the trackway which ran from Bazentin-le-Petit to High Wood, skirting its northern edge.

[JMButchart]

I had a reply from CWGC: "The Commission has no information regarding any possible previous place of burial for Private Tidey."

The Loos Memorial, where Walter Tidey is listed as missing, lists 9 Hertfordshire Regiment soldiers killed on 23/07/1916 and 10 (including Walter Tidey) killed on 30/07/1916. I have found service records for 9 out of these 19 and all record their being attached to the 8th battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment.

So I am satisfied tall 19 were included in the draft of 123 Herts Regiment soldiers who arrived where the 8th battalion was camped near Millencourt on July 13th. Subsequently they took part in the battalion's night attack at Bazentin-Le-Petit on the 22nd July and, if they survived that, the further attack on 30th July.