Khaki Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 Would it be correct to suggest that "in the field" 1914/18 it would be less likely to see collar badges on an officers blouse, and that post war 1919+ it would be almost mandatory? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 My guess would be that they were common until late 1916--probably after that officers attempted to make themselves less conspicuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2012 Thanks old owl, The reason I asked, is that I have an identified officer jacket/blouse that I suspect that was tailored during the great war as although the owner held a senior rank (major)during the war, the epaulettes show evidence (holes) of being either a lieutenant or captain and there is no sign of collar badges. I have just found (half an hour ago) jammed into the corner of a skirt pocket a very tarnished Edward VII skirt pocket button. The officer served pre war. Not proof of anything but interesting. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 Officers did, in general, wear collar badges on their SD (not blouses, which were a WW2 garment) right through until the end of the war and there is a great deal of pictorial evidence of this. However, there are two caveats. First not all regiments had the dress tradition of wearing collar badges. Second, after 1916 many junior infantry officers are reputed to have worn other ranks jackets (which in most cases did not have collar badges) when in the line, although this was not universal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 2 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Officers did, in general. wear collar badges on their SD First not all regiments had the dress tradition of wearing collar badges. If it's not too much trouble, could you tell me which regiments did not wear collar badges. thank you khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 If it's not too much trouble, could you tell me which regiments did not wear collar badges. thank you khaki The most famous regiments to not wear collar badges were the King's Royal Rifles (aka 60th Rifles), the Rifle Brigade and the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). In general regiments that followed the 'rifles tradition' often did not wear collar badges, but some, e.g. the Royal Irish Rifles did. As well as the two original regular rifle regiments, there were some specific battalions of Territorial force that, although part of a non rifles regiment after 1881, had chosen instead to maintain the rifles dress idiosyncrasies of their Volunteer Rifles forebears and, in some cases, these individual battalions did not wear collar badges. In addition, the majority of the battalions of the London Regiment with a rifles title did not wear collar badges, although I seem to recall that a few did. It is a study in itself and would require some research to list who did and who did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 2 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Many thanks FROGSMILE, The information matches well with the known service (1900-1918 with the Rifle Brigade) of the identified tunic I have been researching. regards khaki ps Great photo's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Officers did, in general, wear collar badges on their SD (not blouses, which were a WW2 garment) right through until the end of the war and there is a great deal of pictorial evidence of this. However, there are two caveats. First not all regiments had the dress tradition of wearing collar badges. Second, after 1916 many junior infantry officers are reputed to have worn other ranks jackets (which in most cases did not have collar badges) when in the line, although this was not universal. In Gallipoli in late August 1915 Battalion Officers were ordered to dress as soldiers including arming themselves as soldiers with rifles in order to look less conspicuous. It wasn't a choice in this particular case. This was driven by the extraordinarily high casualty rates following the early August offensive at Suvla Bay. (98% Officer casualties in less than 2 weeks in the 11th Northern Div for example, and some battalions having 100% Officer casualties in the same period) There are a few recorded examples of this in the diaries. Despite this, some officers still went into battle unarmed - Capt Wedgwood Benn 1/1st county of London Yeomanry (Middlesex Hussars) - later Lord Stansgate - actually forgot to arm himself when first going into action on 21st August 1915 - a day that saw particularly high casualty rates, particularly among the Officers of the 10th Irish Div, 11th Northern Div, 29th Div and 2nd Mtd Div. Battalion Officers in the three infantry Divisions saw Officer casualty rates well in excess of 100% during this short campaign. Slightly related to the preservation of Officers' lives - the August Offensive at Gallipoli was also an early (earliest?) example of deliberate orders to keep a proportion of Officers and ORs back from the assaulting troops to prevent the total annihilation of a unit. The reserve would ensure that a nucleus existed on which the battalion could rebuild when reinforcements arrived. There are a few examples of infantry battalions being reduced to a handful of Officers and less than 200 men in only a matter of weeks. A considerable number of battalions were temporarily amalgamated due to the low numbers. Casualty rates were significantly higher than any expectations and the long logistic chain to the Dardanelles meant that the high casualty rates far outstripped the ability to reinforce. The numbers kept in reserve from major assaults were set down in a basic formula based on effective strength as early as late July 1915. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 In Gallipoli in late August 1915 Battalion Officers were ordered to dress as soldiers including arming themselves as soldiers with rifles in order to look less conspicuous. It wasn't a choice in this particular case. This was driven by the extraordinarily high casualty rates following the early August offensive at Suvla Bay. (98% Officer casualties in less than 2 weeks in the 11th Northern Div for example, and some battalions having 100% Officer casualties in the same period) There are a few recorded examples of this in the diaries. Despite this, some officers still went into battle unarmed - Capt Wedgwood Benn 1/1st county of London Yeomanry (Middlesex Hussars) - later Lord Stansgate - actually forgot to arm himself when first going into action on 21st August 1915 - a day that saw particularly high casualty rates, particularly among the Officers of the 10th Irish Div, 11th Northern Div, 29th Div and 2nd Mtd Div. Battalion Officers in the three infantry Divisions saw Officer casualty rates well in excess of 100% during this short campaign. Slightly related to the preservation of Officers' lives - the August Offensive at Gallipoli was also an early (earliest?) example of deliberate orders to keep a proportion of Officers and ORs back from the assaulting troops to prevent the total annihilation of a unit. The reserve would ensure that a nucleus existed on which the battalion could rebuild when reinforcements arrived. There are a few examples of infantry battalions being reduced to a handful of Officers and less than 200 men in only a matter of weeks. A considerable number of battalions were temporarily amalgamated due to the low numbers. Casualty rates were significantly higher than any expectations and the long logistic chain to the Dardanelles meant that the high casualty rates far outstripped the ability to reinforce. The numbers kept in reserve from major assaults were set down in a basic formula based on effective strength as early as late July 1915. MG Yes, I think Gallipoli might well have been the earliest. I am not positive but I think it was after the Somme 1916 offensive that the same policy was introduced in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Many thanks FROGSMILE, The information matches well with the known service (1900-1918 with the Rifle Brigade) of the identified tunic I have been researching. regards khaki ps Great photo's I am glad to help. Here are a few more examples. As well as the lack of collar badges, it was felt that rifles officers could be readily recognised by their black buttons and in many (but not all) cases the use of a cord boss with small badge worn on the cap. Notice too that the Scottish Rifles generally wore two braces (straps) with the sam browne belt, one of only two infantry regiments to do so. Unusually, rifles officers generally wore metal titles along side badges of rank on occasions where the latter were fitted to shoulder straps.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Yes, I think Gallipoli might well have been the earliest. I am not positive but I think it was after the Somme 1916 offensive that the same policy was introduced in France. Certainly in use by 47th (2nd London) Division at Loos September 1915. Excellent photographs and information Frogsmile and Martin G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 2 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Hello Martin G, Excellent information regarding orders about the use by officers of enlisted uniforms and weapons. I had anecdotal information that I had heard but it was interesting and useful that you brought it into perspective. thanks for your research regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Frogsmile, Great selection of photographs. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 Certainly in use by 47th (2nd London) Division at Loos September 1915. That does not surprise me. I think that after the heavy losses at First Ypres there must have been a general recognition in the high command that such trench reserves were essential. And here you can see how the Royal Irish Rifles. alone of the regular rifle regiments, did wear collar badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 December , 2012 Share Posted 2 December , 2012 and one other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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