Shoulder Chains

[FROGSMILE]

I can't say for sure, and I don't have any supporting photographs, but didn't the early Legion of frontiersmen wear shoulder chain mail??

khaki

Yes, they did on their in-barracks uniform, which was a typical serge undress frock (aka 'Jumper'), anyway. I am not sure what the detachment attached to the Belgians in 1914 wore, but it would not surprise me if it was indeed the frock with chains.

[Khaki]

Your right again FROGSMILE, I found a photo on line that showed four Legion of Frontiersmen in Belgium by what appears to be an ox cart, they are holding Belgian 1889 carbines and one of them is wearing a serge undress frock with shoulder chains.

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

Your right again FROGSMILE, I found a photo on line that showed four Legion of Frontiersmen in Belgium by what appears to be an ox cart, they are holding Belgian 1893? carbines and one of them is wearing a serge undress frock with shoulder chains.

khaki

Yes, that would make sense. Although they took their own swords (and some pistols) with them, I believe that the Belgian Army equipped them with carbines. I think there were some more photos in a recent thread on 'who was first' in the 'units and formations' section of the forum.

[Khaki]

Shoulder mail chains from my collection,

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

Some others in wear, but they are not really a WW1 item, other than for Indian cavalry when they first deployed to F&F.

[Khaki]

Thinking about the purpose of shoulder chain in a combat zone, it would seem to me that adding rank badges would be counter productive, insomuch that it would be more likely to cause an enemy blade to 'hang up' rather than deflect it away??

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

Thinking about the purpose of shoulder chain in a combat zone, it would seem to me that adding rank badges would be counter productive, insomuch that it would be more likely to cause an enemy blade to 'hang up' rather than deflect it away??

khaki

Yes I agree, and of course cuff rank was usually worn at that time. I saw a uniform last night of an IMS officer named I think Moorcroft who was wearing shoulder chains as well as his usual black gorget patches (aka 'tabs') so I think he must have been the RMO of an Indian cavalry regiment.

[Khaki]

Thanks,

I had forgotten about cuff rank insignia.

khaki

[Guest]

Hi all,

 

I have just had a look on the internet for Chain mail  military and got sent here. I have been tasked to go through some old photos that my dad bought in an auction. 

I have a unknown photo of a group all wearing chain mail, I have another  photo and trying to see if they are linked.

 

Hope this will interest you enough to give me some pointers, of dates or anything else. I am a complete novice, so any advice would help  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

They are a Yeomanry regiment (i.e. part-time citizen cavalry) I believe.  I can't make out the cap badge on my phone, but going by the collar patches on their patrol jackets they seem to be a regiment styled as Lancers.  My guess would be the Norfolk Yeomanry (the King's Own Royal Regiment) and wearing Edward VII badges.  Facings and collar patches were yellow and the regimental arm badge worn by WO and SNCO, a  stylised Royal coat of arms.

 

The other photos of gentlemen in white uniforms seem to show British diplomats or Crown civil servants in formal, hot weather uniform, probably in Burma.  The Asian gentleman seated centrally is I think a Royal prince or potentate (from the Shan dynasty - deposed 1962) and the British gentleman with dark moustache seated to his left is very likely the Governor, as marked by the white, Ostrich feather cascading plume fitted to his white, Wolseley helmet.  I would date these photos to around 1910.

 

Afternote:  In the military group there are just two officers in the group, both in the seated row, who are marked out by the gold gimp cord and button that forms their collar badge.  Seated between them are two Troop Sergeant Majors with large bullion crowns above the unit arm badge and three stripes.  There are also SNCOs from the regimental staff: a Farrier Sergeant (with horse shoe badge) laying on the ground front left, a Rough Rider (Riding Instructor) Sergeant (with spur badge) seated fourth from left and, standing at left rear and wearing an aiguillette, is the Fencing Instructor, a regular soldier on the permanent staff.  His badge shows 4-inverted chevrons on the lower sleeve with crossed swords, unit arm badge and large, bullion crown over.  It's interesting that all the SNCOs are wearing the thickly padded chevrons that were a feature of many cavalry regiments from the mid part of the 19th C right through into the early part of the 20th C before they fell out of use.  All-in-all it is a great image.  The peaked forage caps that they all wear did not commence issue until 1905.

Edited 14 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

I would agree with Frogsmile. Definitely King's Own Royal Norfolk Yeomanry (Drgoons) in walking out order wearing Edward VII Badge, so sometime between 1902- 1910. The other clincher is the Royal Coat of Arms collar badges which I believe was unique to the Regiment. Also used as an Arm Badge.

 

The collar badge design changed slightly in 1902 and again in 1905 (the scroll became more curved and extended up the side of the Royal Arms). Without a close up it is difficult to be certain but it looks like the badge worn between 1902 and 1905.

 

The facings (collars, hat band, and cuffs) were yellow as was the single stripe down the overalls. I believe yellow on certain types of photographic film appears much darker.

 

Reference: The Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Force 1794-1914: The Yeomanry Cavalry of Norfolk by R J Smith and R G Harris.1991 which has an illustration on the back cover with one NCO wearing eactly the same dress. (see below - extreme left)

 

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The peaked forage caps that they all wear did not commence issue until 1905.

 

In the interests of historical accuracy, in the case of the King's Own Royal Norfolk Yeomanry peaked caps were issued to Other Ranks in 1902. There is a Regimental Order dated March 1902 that specifically refers to this. 

 

Edward VII took very special interest in the uniform of this Regiment and it was allegedly the last unit to convert to Khaki in 1911. Up to that point the Regiment wore their undress  blue in the field. Edward VII considered Khaki as a prisoner's uniform. 

 

Smith and Harris page 30. 

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 standing at left rear and wearing an aiguillette, is the Fencing Instructor, a regular soldier on the permanent staff.  His badge shows 4-inverted chevrons on the lower sleeve with crossed swords, unit arm badge and large, bullion crown over.  

 

I had him as the Trumpet Major. Inverted chevrons indicate senior NCO Band /Drums/Trumpet I think... not Fencing. Alos, he isn't a regular as he is wearing the uniform of the Yeomanry. Regulars serving with Yeomanry would wear their own regimental uniform and insignia. 

 

The same man is shown in another photo of the same period with the Regimental band. It would be rather odd to have a Fencing Instructor in the middle of the band. Also the Yeomanry had lost their swords so there was no Fencing Instructor on the establishment after 1902. Swords were only used for ceremonial purposes until 1914 (although some Yeomanry regiments completely ignored this..... So if he is a fencing Instructor (which I doubt) it cant be during the Territorial Force period.  

 

Aiguillettes also suggest Trumpet Major.. ..all 18 in the Band are wearing them.  Page 32 of the same reference. Bandmaster is named as MacCartney which might help date the images. 

 

Incidentally the man standing on the extreme right (proper left) of the row immediately behind those who are seated is the Band Sgt. He is also in the other photo. 

 

M

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/09/2017 at 04:12, QGE said:

 

In the interests of historical accuracy, in the case of the King's Own Royal Norfolk Yeomanry peaked caps were issued to Other Ranks in 1902. There is a Regimental Order dated March 1902 that specifically refers to this. 

 

Edward VII took very special interest in the uniform of this Regiment and it was allegedly the last unit to convert to Khaki in 1911. Up to that point the Regiment wore their undress  blue in the field. Edward VII considered Khaki as a prisoner's uniform. 

 

Smith and Harris page 30. 

 

That's very interesting  and I don't doubt what you say in the least, especially if you sit there with the regimental history.  I took the date of 1905 from the regular Army issue, being conscious that the auxiliary forces were often issued new equipment later, but of course each County Association could make its own decisions as they had their own, direct funding and given the King's interest they would have been well motivated to wish to meet his preference.  Thank you for posting such interesting details.

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

I had him as the Trumpet Major. He isn't a regular as he is wearing the uniform of the Yeomanry. Regulars serving with Yeomanry would wear their own regimental uniform and insignia I believe. 

 

The same man is shown in another photo of the same period with the Regimental band. It would be rather odd to have a Fencing Instructor in the middle of the band. Also the Yeomanry had lost their swords so there was no Fencing Instructor on the establishment after 1908. So if he is a fencing Instructor (which I doubt) it cant be during the Territorial Force period.  

 

Aiguillettes also suggest Trumpet Major.. ..all 18 in the Band are wearing them.  Page 32 of the same reference. Bandmaster is named as MacCartney which might help date the images. 

 

M

 

Again, I am sure that you are correct.  What I saw on my phone screen looked to me to be crossed swords, but looking again I can see that it could easily be the crossed trumpets badge with bell mouths down facing as was traditional.  It did seem odd that he was wearing aiguillettes so the notion of it being the band uniform makes complete sense.  Hopefully we have between us been of some assistance to the original poster.

 

One aspect is new to me and that is your assurance that permanent staff instructors wore the uniform of their parent unit.  I have not noticed that before.  Certainly it was not the policy in auxiliary infantry units so I am surprised as it would have done nothing to boost coherence and I imagine could have been quite divisive.  All that said, before formation of the TF in 1908, the Yeomanry and volunteer battalions of infantry behaved in much more independent ways.

Edited 14 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

On 15/09/2017 at 04:55, FROGSMILE said:

 

That's very interesting  and I don't doubt what you say in the least, especially if you sit there with the regimental history.  I took the date of 1905 from the regular Army issue, being conscious that the auxiliary forces were often issued new equipment later, but of course each County Association could make its own decisions as they had their own, direct funding and given the King's interest they would have been well motivated to wish to meet his preference.  Thank you for posting such interesting details.

 

We live and learn. I don't have the Regimental history, I have simply studied the Yeomanry in detail for 30 years and only have a very thin volume on the Norfolk Yeomanry (which incidentally contains errors). 

 

The driver of their uniform was Edward VII who took personal interest and approved every minute detail. Incidentally the Yeomanry uniforms did not always conform to regular dress regulations. There are lots of examples of 'cross-dressing' where units have Dragoon helmets and hussar tunics, or Lancer tunics despite being designated as Dragoons. It is a complex area and full of red herrings. The South Notts Hussars paraded with lances three years on the trot during the period when the Yeomanry were no longer part of the Arme Blanche.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, QGE said:

 

We live and learn. I don't have the Regimental history, I have simply studied the Yeomanry in detail for 30 years and only have a very thin volume on the Norfolk Yeomanry (which incidentally contains errors). 

 

The driver of their uniform was Edward VII who took personal interest and approved every minute detail. Incidentally the Yeomanry uniforms did not always conform to regular dress regulations. There are lots of examples of 'cross-dressing' where units have Dragoon helmets and hussar tunics, or Lancer tunics despite being designated as Dragoons. It is a complex area and full of red herrings. The South Notts Hussars paraded with lances three years on the trot during the period when the Yeomanry were no longer part of the Arme Blanche.

 

By regimental history I merely meant the book from which you were quoting page numbers, it doesn't really matter what it is, it's just good and of benefit to us all that you can quote from it - hence my thanks.

The mix of uniforms is quite intriguing, although might also be viewed as something of a dog's dinner.  Interesting all the same though.  I must invest in a decent reference book covering their idiosyncrasies.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Again, I am sure that you are correct.  What I saw on my phone screen looked to be to be crossed swords, but looking again I can see that it could easily be the crossed trumpets with bell

mouth down facing as was traditional.  It did seem odd that he was wearing aiguillettes so the notion of it being the band uniform makes complete sense.  Hopefully we have between us been of some assistance to the original poster.

 

Indeed. The fact that he was wearing KORNY uniform alone would eliminate him as a regular. It sounds as if we are now in furious agreement. As well as four inverted chevrons which I dont think were part of a Fencing Instructor's insignia. Happy to be corrected. 

 

Leaning on your considerable expertise, I note the SNCO immediately right  (proper left) is wearing an old type bandolier. Would this help date the photo? My insticts tell me pre 1908 but I have no 'uniform' expertise.... Incidentally the other photo is labelled circa 1908, but that does not eliminate the large possibility that the photos were taken years apart. I will trawl the Army lists to establish the Bandmaster's dates. 

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

Indeed. The fact that he was wearing KORNY uniform alone would eliminate him as a regular. It sound as if we are now in furious agreement. As well as four inverted chevrons which I dont think were part of a Fencing Instructor's insignia. Happy to be corrected. 

 

Leaning on your considerable expertise, I note the SNCO immediately right  (proper left) is wearing an old type bandolier. Would this help date the photo? My insticts tell em pre 1908 but I have no 'uniform' expertise.... Incidentally the other photo is labelled circa 1908, but that does not eliminate the large possibility that the photos were taken years apart. I will trawl the Army lists to establish the Bandmaster's dates. 

 

The bandolier looks to be of 1897, mounted infantry pattern, which was itself a modification of the earlier, 1882 pattern.

 

Before 1892 the Fencing Instructors wore 3 point down chevrons, crossed swords and crown above on upper arm.  After that date a majority of regiments adopted 4-inverted chevrons, badge and crown on lower arm.  There were some who chose not to and there was a tradition that regiments styled as Hussars were often different. To be positive it is necessary to research each regiment, especially so for Yeomanry, as you have pointed out.

Edited 14 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The bandolier looks to be of 1897, mounted infantry pattern, which was itself a modification of the earlier, 1882 pattern.

 

Before 1892 the Fencing Instructors wore 3 point down chevrons, crossed swords and crown above on upper arm.  After that date a majority of regiments adopted 4-inverted chevrons and crown on lower arm.  There were some who chose not too and there was a tradition that regiments styled as Hussars were often different. To be positive it is necessary to research each regiment, especially so for Yeomanry, as you have pointed out.

 

Thanks Frogsmile. I don't know exactly when the later bandolier was issued (1903?) and when the Yeomanry adopted it (the earliest evidence I have is 1906). The Yeomanry of course could always have legacy equipment drifting way beyond their 'sell-by' date. TF Association budgets were a limit factor, but it at least hints at earlier than later in the 1902-1910 bracket.

 

Thank you too for the clarification on Fencing Instructors' insignia. I assume aiguillettes were never part of their dress. 

 

MG

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

Thanks Frogsmile. I don't know exactly when the later bandolier was issued (1903?) and when the Yeomanry adopted it (the earliest evidence I have is 1906). The Yeomanry of course could always have legacy equipment drifting way beyond their 'sell-by' date. TF Association budgets were a limit factor, but it at least hints at earlier than later in the 1902-1910 bracket.

 

Thank you too for the clarification on Fencing Instructors' insignia. I assume aiguillettes were never part of their dress. 

 

MG

 

Yes, the replacement bandolier comprised the 1903 equipment in two variants, one for mounted infantry and support corps and one for cavalry (the latter with pouches on the back as well as chest).  I agree that the photo seems to be early on in the 1900s.

 

I am puzzled you mention aiguillettes again, it smacks of salt and rubbing in (or perhaps an odd sense of humour ), it was not impossible that it might have been a Norfolk's eccentricity.  Differences abounded after all, as you have pointed out - albeit that it did seem odd.

 

 

Edited 14 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, the replacement bandolier comprised the 1903 equipment in two variants, one for mounted infantry and support corps and one for cavalry (the latter with pouches on the back as well as chest).  I agree that the photo seems to be early on in the 1900s.

 

I am puzzled you mention aiguillettes, it smacks of salt and rubbing in, it was not impossible that it might have been a Norfolk's eccentricity.  Differences abounded after all, as you have pointed out.

 

 

 

Ref 1903. Thank you. I have one hanging on the back of my chair. Derbyshire Yeomanry. I keep dog biscuits in it. A rather useful bit of kit. 

 

Ref Aguillettes. I am sorry you feel that way.  I am only interested in research and better understanding and nothing else. You are an acknowledged expert on uniforms and dress regs and I am most certainly not, although I know a little bit about the Yeomanry and their eccentricities. I have a massive respect for your knowledge. Huge in fact...but we all occasionally make small errors. It is nothing to worry about. I make lots of mistakes. It is the only way to learn in my view. It is an occupational hazard. My benchmark is to make fewer mistakes than BBC documentaries which is not that difficult.... I was asking simply to clarify if a Yeomanry SNCO clearly wearing an aiguillette could possibly be a fencing instructor. In the photo he is (I think) the only one wearing this item which makes him a stand-out against 30-odd other SNCOs wearing Sam Brownes (or something similar to a Sam Browne). To me that itself would warrant some pause for thought.

 

As you point out, a Fencing Instructor wore four inverted chevrons (something I did not know - so thank you for explaining this. I have learned something new). I understand that it would be very easy to confuse the two appointments in a blurred photo on a smartphone but the other details (Yeoman uniform and aiguillette) would eliminate this confusion unless of course Fencing Instructors did wear aiguillettes. It is not that important, I was simply curious to understand the uniform peculiarities of a Fencing Instructor's insignia ( blind spot in my knowledge). I would add Riding Instructor to that list too as they (Riding Instructors) are a very blind spot in my knowledge and they seem to have been rather important people in Cavalry and Yeomanry regiments. Their status was extremely high in a mounted regiment.  I am not even sure of the difference between a Rough Rider and a Riding Instructor....subject for another thread. 

 

Martin

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

You, really, really, really didn't need to explain all that.  I surrender...I really do.

 

PS.  Rough Rider was the original title for a riding instructor (a 'rough' being an unbroken horse), later on the formal title changed to 'Riding Instructor'.  Also, 4-chevrons became the badge of a whole range of regimental staff appointments, not just the Fencing Instructor.  The differences were determined by various badges added on.

Edited 14 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Frogsmile... I thought that I "really really really" did; disagreeing and offering referenced facts does not equate to "rubbing salt" into a wound. Really. It is simply an attempt to advise the OP with accurate information. That's all. You appear to be hyper-sensitive to any disagreement and seem to see it as a personal criticism. It isn't. I really mean that. It is about research and imparting accurate information and knowledge and nothing else.  

 

Thank you for the pointer on Rough Rider. 

 

On a more constructive note, If you want some very detailed studies on the Yeomanry I would recommend these books CLICK...very cheap and written by informed people. I paid 99p for mine 15 years ago so they are trading at around +100% profit over that period. Not a bad investment. Lots of minute detail on uniforms and references to their idiosyncracies which would be right up your street. 

 

Separately I have the Dress Regs of the 11th Hussars which I don't want and is yours if you PM me with an address. It needs a good home. A scarce item with some very fine line drawings. On topic: chain mail epaulettes included in the detail. 

 

Martin

 

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, QGE said:

Frogsmile... I thought that I "really really really" did; disagreeing and offering referenced facts does not equate to "rubbing salt" into a wound. Really. It is simply an attempt to advise the OP with accurate information. That's all. You appear to be hyper-sensitive to any disagreement and seem to see it as a personal criticism. It isn't. I really mean that. It is about research and imparting accurate information and knowledge and nothing else.  

 

Thank you for the pointer on Rough Rider. 

 

On a more constructive note, If you want some very detailed studies on the Yeomanry I would recommend these books CLICK...very cheap and written by informed people. I paid 99p for mine 15 years ago so they are trading at around +100% profit over that period. Not a bad investment. Lots of minute detail on uniforms and references to their idiosyncracies which would be right up your street. 

 

Separately I have the Dress Regs of the 11th Hussars which I don't want and is yours if you PM me with an address. It needs a good home. A scarce item with some very fine line drawings. On topic: chain mail epaulettes included in the detail. 

 

Martin

 

 

Martin,

 

Thank you for your kind offer, I will pm you.  Also the tips for the Yeomanry books.  I fear you misunderstood my attempt at wry humour, but no matter.  We had best let the OP digest the replies.

 

FS

Edited 15 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE