geraint Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Thanks Gwyn. Translation is a swift translation without attempting rhyme nor meter. I'm sure that far better ones are available. I'm not certain - but I think R Williams Parry was more Snowdonia based than Hedd Wyn. Was your dad from that area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 My Uncle is called Heddwyn, named after the poet I assume. All birth registrations 1837 to date (130 of them,via Ancestry) supports your assumption Gareth. First one actually in last Quarter of 1917. There is a good spread around Wales and also a fair amount registerd in various English districts. Hywyn Geraint (R Williams Parry was from Talysarn, Caernarfonshire) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Thanks Geraint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 6 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2013 A beautiful poem. Thank you for posting this for us Geraint. Regards, Michael Bully Lovely post, Geraint. Is it your translation? Welsh poetry needs to be heard for the intricacy of its interwoven sounds. I believe my dad used to see Robert Williams Parry sometimes walking about the family's village - I think Parry's wife was from Rhosllanerchrugog. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Whilst rooting about re R(obert) Williams Parry (his service records exist) I looked up his biography on the National Library website http://wbo.llgc.org....R-WIL-1884.html With regards to the 'war poet'/'wartime poet' debate this section is pertinent "...During World War I he wrote several sonnets - ‘ Pantycelyn ’, ‘ Mae hiraeth yn y môr ’, ‘ Cysur Henaint ’, ‘ Gadael Tir ’, and those which deal directly with the war, like ‘ Y Cantîn Gwlyb ’ and ‘ Y Ddrafft ’. But he retained his love of cynghanedd , as can be seen in the memorial englynion to friends and acquaintances, and especially to those who fell in battle, like the famous sequence to Hedd Wyn ( Ellis Humphrey Evans , DWB , 229). ....." So as well as the Hedd Wyn poem he seemed to have written quite a few for others. I'm afraid that I can't commemt on the actual poetry and certainly cannot decipher them to the extent of providing an authentic translation in poetic terms such as that priovided above by Geraint. I got A grades in both Welsh Lit. and English Lit. O levels and to this day I'm convinced I must have had someone elses grades!! Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 My Uncle is called Heddwyn, named after the poet I assume. Very interesting point Gareth and a very valid response by Hywyn. It's not something that i'd ever considered. Hedd and Heddwyn names being not uncommon in Wales. Hywyn am I right in R Williams Parry being classed C1 and only fit for home duties? Or was he like Hedd Wyn -a conscript? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Thanks Gwyn. Translation is a swift translation without attempting rhyme nor meter. I'm sure that far better ones are available. I'm not certain - but I think R Williams Parry was more Snowdonia based than Hedd Wyn. Was your dad from that area? For a spontaneous translation it read very effectively. I think R Williams Parry may have been visiting the inlaws. It's good to see another Welsh poet drawn to people's attention. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Re the name and going by Ancetsry returns with the the split being pre and post 1916 Hedd = 14 and 500 Hedd Wyn = 0 and 10 Heddwyn = 0 and 150 Re RWP: Here are my notes from his Service Records "Robert Williams Parry was single man aged 32 teaching at the High School for Boys, Newport Rd, Cardiff when the enlisted in November 1916 into the Inns of Court Officers Training Corps, Lincolns Inn, London (he was in the Aberystwyth OTC 1903-4) Next of Kin, his father Robert Parry of Rhiwafon, Talysarn. As he was not recommended for commission he applied for transfer to the Carnarvonshire RGA. On 25th April 1917 he was transferred to the RGA as Gunner 158344. It’s not entirely clear where he went initially but the number does not support the Carnarvonshire RGA. On 23rd June 1918 he was transferred to 53 AA Coy (London District) He was released to Army Class Z reserve in January 1919." I didn't spot any classification other than B2. His eyesight on enlistment was 6/12 in both eyes. There was no reason given for the decision on the commission. I did start to look up eyesight gradings but quickly gave up. I was surprised that it seems to be a metric measure (for that era?) Quite possibly I got the wrong end of the stick about this though. Happens often. Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Geraint, I tried to send a PM but it says you can't receive them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 6 January , 2013 Share Posted 6 January , 2013 Hywyn - that's a very thorough account of RWP's army career. Thanks for that. Gwyn - no idea on pms. I'll have a looksee and try and clear the account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmania Posted 7 January , 2013 Share Posted 7 January , 2013 An excellent anthology of Welsh poetry related to the war is "Gwaedd Y Bechgyn" edited by Alan Llwyd and Elwyn Edwards (Cyhoeddoadau Barddas 1989). Includes works by, amongst others, Cynan, T Gwyn Jones, I D Hooson, R Williams Parry, Eifion Wyn, T E Nicholas and of course Hedd Wyn. The works of some of these poets appear in English translation in Alan Llwyd's "Out of The Fire of Hell: Welsh Experience of The Great War 1914-1918 in Prose and Verse" (Gwasg Gomer 2008). Aled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 7 January , 2013 Share Posted 7 January , 2013 Aled, Thanks for the details of Alan Llwyd's book; one for the list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 7 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2013 Aled- also thanks from me for the information about Alan Llwyd anthology Will try to seek it out . Perhaps one positive outcome from the 2014-2018 Great War centenary will be that people will start seeking out some of the lesser known poets. Regards Michael Bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 8 January , 2013 Share Posted 8 January , 2013 Michael, My local (when home for the weekend) bookshop, Bailey Hill Bookshop in Castle Cary, has ordered me a copy of "Out of the fires of hell" and says it will be with them in a couple of weeks. sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 11 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2013 Hello SJ. Was at the British Library yesterday and had a look at 'Out of The Fires of Hell', very impressive. Features more famous names such as Wilfred Owen, Robert Graves, Edward Thomas ( having Welsh parents or Welsh ancestery qualifies for being included) along with poets such as Hedd Wyn who are lesser known to people such as myself who have no connection with Wales. Also features pieces of prose : The 'War at Sea' section is exclusively prose. Regards Michael Bully Michael, My local (when home for the weekend) bookshop, Bailey Hill Bookshop in Castle Cary, has ordered me a copy of "Out of the fires of hell" and says it will be with them in a couple of weeks. sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 11 January , 2013 Share Posted 11 January , 2013 (edited) It is a varied, solid collection and I would endorse its recommendation. The experience of Welsh people in war should be placed in the especially Welsh context: the peaceful Nonconformist tradition (and only eleven years earlier the country had been immersed in an intense Revival), the strength of Socialism, the language , the strong sense of national identity, and the powerful awareness that Wales is indeed a separate nation and country. I have enjoyed Gwyn A Williams' writings on this because I find his enthusiasm engaging, but there will be others. ('When Was Wales?' is probably the best known.) How far the nationality of Lloyd George affected popular thinking and creative responses I don't know. Someone ought to have done a study on it. Gwyn Edited - added book title. Edited 11 January , 2013 by Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 11 January , 2013 Share Posted 11 January , 2013 Thank you both for those contributions - I'm looking forward to reading the book when it comes. Gwyn, I wonder if they have anything on that aspect of Lloyd George at the Ty Newydd centre? http://www.tynewydd.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 11 January , 2013 Share Posted 11 January , 2013 Just been pointed at this publication, forthcoming in March, http://www.candlestickpress.co.uk/pamphlet/ten-poems-from-wales/ which includes Hedd Wyn's Rhyfel = War in a parallel translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 12 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2013 Hello Gwyn-can you recommend any studies specifically about Wales and the Great War? Would like to know more about the points that you have raised below. Thanks, Michael It is a varied, solid collection and I would endorse its recommendation. The experience of Welsh people in war should be placed in the especially Welsh context: the peaceful Nonconformist tradition (and only eleven years earlier the country had been immersed in an intense Revival), the strength of Socialism, the language , the strong sense of national identity, and the powerful awareness that Wales is indeed a separate nation and country. I have enjoyed Gwyn A Williams' writings on this because I find his enthusiasm engaging, but there will be others. ('When Was Wales?' is probably the best known.) How far the nationality of Lloyd George affected popular thinking and creative responses I don't know. Someone ought to have done a study on it. Gwyn Edited - added book title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 12 January , 2013 Share Posted 12 January , 2013 Hello Michael I don't think I'm the best person to answer your question. Maybe Geraint, Hywyn, Carmania or LST will be able to help. They know much more than I do and they can read Welsh. Coming from a Nonconformist, Chapel, background I became very interested in the (religious) Revivals (1859, 1904/5) and in Nonconformity in Wales. Having left-wing tendencies, an inherited sense of Welsh nationhood and a strong sense of social injustice, I read a lot about the coming of industry to Wales and the development of socialism. Thus I enjoyed the writings of Gwyn A Williams, whose work sets the beginning of WW1 into that context; though he is radical, he is also very readable. Books I inherited from my grandad include works by Ll Wyn Griffith who wrote about the Great War (famously Up To Mametz) and about wider Welsh issues. Those are just personal interest for me, though, and they don't answer your question. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 12 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2013 Appreciate the information Gwyn. Thanks. Was Gwyn A Williams co-presenter of 'The Dragon Has Two Tongues' TV series? Yes if anyone else has further information that they can add, that would be welcome. Regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 12 January , 2013 Share Posted 12 January , 2013 Yes, he was, with Wynford Vaughan Thomas. You might find something searching on Llafur. There is a Welsh and and an English option. (Try Journal > search all journals) Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 12 January , 2013 Share Posted 12 January , 2013 You've raised so many questions and issues here Gwyn. The Lloyd George question regarding the influences of Wales and Welsh culture on him as a politician and Prime Minister is a PhD thesis in it's own right, which historians such as Kenneth Morgan and Emyr Price and others have spent an academic lifetime in attempting to decipher. A second point is then raised regarding cymric (non-english) poets and literature, and the influences upon them over the centuries. Then you raise a third issue regarding 20th century historians such as Gwyn Alf Williams coming from the industrial, socialist south, directly challenging the soft Tory liberal right Wynford Vaughan Thomas. Its a confusing mass of influences which are not seen in England nor Scotland nor Ireland. The Welsh language conveys a culture and a way of life which often competes with English - in it's culture and values. A third dimension then came into existence about 800 years ago - Anglo Welsh. Those who were well aware of Cymric influences, but for a variety of reasons didn't speak Welsh; but who certainly wern't English. Flowing through our national history is one over arching fact - The Welsh are born loosers. Throughout history the Welsh have ultimately lost all political, judicial and economical power. In 1282 we were bloodily conquered, ethnically clensed, and all Welsh royal bloodlines killed off. 1415 post Glyndwr the Penal Laws allowed us to be summarily executed by English civilians without justice. 1536 The Acts of Union absorbed Welsh lands into 13 English shires. Our gentry became anglicised to ensure further patronage, our labouring classes continued to live in poverty, speaking Welsh, or emigrated in thousands to England and the Colonies and became English. If they could turn their backs on Wales and Welsh they would: look you boyo. They had a chance of furthering their fortunes. The brave new world of riches was an English speaking one; an Anglican nonWelsh world. But by 1914 a million Welsh speakers, halof of whom were monolingual; lived and remained in Wales. Mainly working class poor families working in agriculture, slate, coal, steel and other low-paying heavy industries. On my mother's side my family came from Llanelli (coal and farming) and my father from Pwllheli (granite quarry and seafaring). My grandparents barely spoke English, though they had been forced through the elementary school system not to communicate in Welsh for fear of the Welsh Not. A system where the last kid caught at 3,00pm speaking Welsh was thrashed before going home.. So; why am I relaying this now? To be Welsh in 1913, and in 2013 is a political statement of culture, values and history. Just stating that you're Welsh means that you have a massive chip on your shoulder; and a public inferiority complex. Perhaps you can understand the magic of a man such as Lloyd George who came from no-where to be Prime Minister. To be such a person was an emotional conflict. You were acting as an English person, but riven with the angst and foibles and strengths of a Welshman. Something that no Englishman could comprehend; but made him a far stronger person because of it. This is a very difficult post to write. I'm off to do a bit of reading and contemplation. I may return! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 14 January , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2013 Thanks for the link Gwyn and Geraint for posting about Welsh history. Sounds as if it would be helpful if a Welsh historian would write a basic history of Wales and the Great War- a sort of equivalent to Trevor Royle's 'The Flowers of the Forest-Scotland and the First World War' . Regards, Michael Bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 14 January , 2013 Share Posted 14 January , 2013 Geraint, you make the point most eloquently that there is much more to Hedd Wyn than a poet who happened to have been born Welsh: that the context of Wales at the time he lived is vital to appreciating his work. I can empathise with the emphasis you give to language; my family were (are) all Welsh speaking and I can remember being shown to my father's very old great aunt who couldn't speak English, even in the early 1960s. I wasn't aware of the studies you mention and it sounds as if they would be worth investigating. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now