Pen Pal on Western Front

[trishedst]

Hi Lads,

The soldier on the top right of the picture is Pte J R Irving 5th Services Batt D Company R.Innis.Fus he was a pen pal of my wife's Grandmother

while on the Western front. I don't know if he survived. Are the other three

soldiers from R.Inns.Fus. their uniforms are a lot different to his.

Regards

Ed

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Lads,

The soldier on the top right of the picture is Pte J R Irving 5th Services Batt D Company R.Innis.Fus he was a pen pal of my wife's Grandmother

while on the Western front. I don't know if he survived. Are the other three

soldiers from R.Inns.Fus. their uniforms are a lot different to his.

Regards

Ed

The soldier at top left is wearing the then new 1902 pattern, khaki drab, service dress (SD) uniform. The other three men have khaki drill (KD) tropical uniforms (although one man is wearing SD trousers) and two have the slouch hat that was authorised for field head wear in 1902, although it had been worn experimentally before that. I would date the picture to around 1902-03. At that time the unit title (white on scarlet) was worn on a cloth badge at the top of each arm on SD, just below the shoulder, and if you look carefully I think you can see that.

[trishedst]

Thanks Frogsmile, Would you say these men served oversea before WW1?

[Andrew Upton]

Slight problem - the chap standing left is clearly wearing the Simplified version of the SD jacket (larger, unpleated pockets visible, and no rifle patches above them) - thus this picture cannot date to any earlier than mid/late 1914 at the very earliest.

[FROGSMILE]

Slight problem - the chap standing left is clearly wearing the Simplified version of the SD jacket (larger, unpleated pockets visible, and no rifle patches above them) - thus this picture cannot date to any earlier than mid/late 1914 at the very earliest.

I could see that Andrew, and also the cross hached chevrons too. I felt that the SD jacket was perhaps one of the early experimental patterns that evolved from the 1899 pattern. I came to the conclusion I did largely because of the KD and slouch hats, but you might be right, it is difficult to be sure.

For Ed: What Andrew says about the SD jacket of the man at top left is a good point and it is quite possibly the simplified tunic that is worn, a pattern which was largely issued between (from memory) July 1914 and September 1915, as an expedient to assist manufacturers to increase output of much needed uniforms in the early part of the war. They were especially needed for the New Armies of volunteers then being recruited by Kitchener.

In answer to your other question, the presence of KD and the slouch hats would indicate that the men in the photo are most likely overseas in a hot climate such as Egypt, India or South Africa.

[JOHN BALL]

Medal card for a J.R. Irving, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. (2G Balkans) First entered 10-7-15, Remarks, CL '2' 7-3-19.

Does this means he survived the war?.

John.

[spof]

John

That should read Cl Z for Class Z which was a reserve of men kept on notice in case hostilities flared up again and the date of 7th MArch 1919 does mean he survived.

Glen

[JOHN BALL]

Thanks Glen, so back to the photo. Could it be that the chap in the heavy uniform is from a recent draft, not yet issued with lightweights.

What would be the standard uniform in the Balkans have been in 1915 onwards?.

John.

[trishedst]

Hi Lads,

Thanks for all your help, This is a picture of Pte Irving dated 26.4.15 and stationed in Richmond Barracks Dublin. I think he looks a couple of years older in this picture than the first one but not sure. Does this help with the uniform identification.

Regards

ED

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Lads,

Thanks for all your help, This is a picture of Pte Irving dated 26.4.15 and stationed in Richmond Barracks Dublin. I think he looks a couple of years older in this picture than the first one but not sure. Does this help with the uniform identification.

Regards

ED

ED in this photo he is wearing the standard pattern of 1902 service dress, which was used both before and after the simplified pattern referred to above.

The movements of the 5th Service Battalion R Inning Fus were as follows:

1. 5th (Service) Bn. K1. Formed at Omagh in Aug 1914 in the 31st Brigade 10th Division, which was formed in Ireland in August 1914, as part of the First New Army until May 1918. The 10th Division served in Gallipoli, Macedonia and Palestine. Between April and May 1918 the Division was reduced to one British Battalion per Brigade, the shortfall was made up with Indian units and the British battalions so relieved (incl 5th R Inning Fus) moved to France and Flanders. The 10th Division remained in Palestine until the Armistice (31 October 1918).

2. 5th Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 28 May 1918, to the 66th (The 2nd East Lancashire) Division, which was formed from the Home Service men of the Territorial Force units in the 42nd Division, formed in Great Britain in October/November 1914. After supplying many drafts to units overseas the division started to prepare for overseas in February 1917. It arrived in France in March 1917. The Division was reduced to Cadre in May 1918 and was reconstituted in July-September 1918. It served in France and Flanders until the Armistice. The 5th Bn Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. 19 Jul 1918 - 11 Nov 1918 was part of 66th Div's 198th (2nd East Lancashire) Brigade after it was reformed and up until the armistice.

[Chief_Chum]

Following the snaffling of a shipment of Wolseley sun helmets the British Salonika Force found themselves wearing slouch hats through the summer of 1916.

They were rarely worn elsewhere by the Brits during The Great War so I think 1916 in Macedonia would be my guess.

There were plenty of South African War vintage Khaki Drill jackets and trousers still around and there is quite a bit of variety issued throughout the war.

In 1915 the 10th (Irish) Division arrived in the middle of a freezing cold Macedonian winter straight from Gallipoli and many of them were still wearing khaki drill with predictable results.

[FROGSMILE]

Following the snaffling of a shipment of Wolseley sun helmets the British Salonika Force found themselves wearing slouch hats through the summer of 1916.

They were rarely worn elsewhere by the Brits during The Great War so I think 1916 in Macedonia would be my guess.

There were plenty of South African War vintage Khaki Drill jackets and trousers still around and there is quite a bit of variety issued throughout the war.

In 1915 the 10th (Irish) Division arrived in the middle of a freezing cold Macedonian winter straight from Gallipoli and many of them were still wearing khaki drill with predictable results.

Great stuff Chief_Chum, that is very interesting and one to commit to the old memory banks.

[Chief_Chum]

My pleasure.