Enlistment - Regular Army or New Army?

[kevin ley]

I have completed quite a bit of research now on my Gt. Grandfather Lewis John Ley, aided my much great advice from forum members, but I still have one nagging question. I am hoping forum members can shed some light on this.

My Gt. Grandad enlisted 2nd September 1914 and was discharged sick 28th July 1916. On the Victory/BWM roll he is listed as only serving with the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers and disembarking in France on 1st May 1915. I know from the battalion history written by the C/O of the battalion (Lt. Col Burrowes) that the largest number of other ranks joining the battalion in the field in 1915 was during the month of May 1915. They were in the thick of it at the time in 2nd Ypres near St. Julien and St. Jean with gas attacks and holding the line against the German offensive. Gen Plumer at the time I am sure was bolstering the ranks to hold the line.

In the 1901 Census, Lewis, aged 19, is a railway cleaner. He got married in 1908 in Kingston, Surrey, when he started to have family. Later I know that my Gt. Grandad was a milkman 1908-1910 (from various birth certificates of his children). He was living in Ashford (near Staines) in Middlesex certainly as late as 1912 (when his third child was born) and probably also on the eve of outbreak of war in August 1914. He was born in 1881 and was 33 with a wife and three young kids when he enlisted.

2 questions:

1. Why would he have ended up in a Regular Army unit rather than a New Army unit? At least as far as I know he did not have any previous military training.

2. From September 14 to May 15 is only 8 months of training. Is it likely that a man of 33 with young 3 kids, with no previous military training is likely to go from being a milkman to going straight to a Regular Army unit in 9 months? The 1st Battalion R.Ir.Fus were one of the first units to go out in 1914 and could rightfully be called a crack infantry unit at the time.

My understanding is that the New Army took almost two years to train and their baptism of fire was the Battle of the Somme (1 July 1916).

In the considered opinion of the members does the weight of evidence suggest that my Gt. Grandad was perhaps in the Army before perhaps between 1901 and 1908? If so, how does one go about finding our the names of people who served before the Great War and who may have left the army, only to re-enlist on the outbreak of war.

Interested to know the member's thoughts.

Kevin.

[PhilB]

Kevin, the New Army were in action in 1915 at Loos and Gallipoli. 8 months training would be a long time by the standards of the later years, so I wouldn`t be surprised if he had been sent out as a reinforcement for the 1st Bn. I`m sure some of our Irish specialists will advise you on possible previous army service.

Phil B

[Wienand Drenth]

1. Why would he have ended up in a Regular Army unit rather than a New Army unit? At least as far as I know he did not have any previous military training.

2. From September 14 to May 15 is only 8 months of training. Is it likely that a man of 33 with young 3 kids, with no previous military training is likely to go from being a milkman to going straight to a Regular Army unit in 9 months? The 1st Battalion R.Ir.Fus were one of the first units to go out in 1914 and could rightfully be called a crack infantry unit at the time.

My understanding is that the New Army took almost two years to train and their baptism of fire was the Battle of the Somme (1 July 1916).

Kevin,

According to what I know it was possible in the beginning of the war for a person to choose whether he would joined the Regular Army, the New Army, of even the Territorials. I believe quite a few joined the Regulars since that had more prestige, and might give them action much quicker. So, if he joined the Regular Army, he might have joined his battalion after his training.

The New Army took so long to train and get ready for battle because they had to be build from scratch, except for perhaps a few veterans. So, apart from individual training as a soldier, the new formations also needed training. This training being at company, battalion, brigade and divisional level. That sort of training was of course already done in peacetime by the Regular Army. In case of you ggfather, this means he could join his regiment after completion of training.

As for the baptism of fire of the New Army, their first appearance was in the Battle of Loos. The New Army division with the "pals" battalions came into action on the Somme as you wrote.

Hope this help a little.

Wienand

[Will O'Brien]

Why would he have ended up in a Regular Army unit rather than a New Army unit? At least as far as I know he did not have any previous military training.

Kevin...............Just to add what has already been posted................It was not as uncommon as you'd think for a volunteer to end up quite quickly in a regular battalion if it needed replacements urgently...................As an example my own Great Uncle who to my knowledge had no previous military training & was not a Territorial was sent to France & drafted to the 1st Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers at the beginning of December 1914 less than 4 months after volunteering...........the luck of the draw you might say

[steve fuller]

Hi Kevin

Just to support previous comments really.

My relative (signature) enlisted Aug, was too old, so 'got in' Sept. Joined Beds Reserves (for training), was posted into 1/5th Beds a TF Battalion, (although no previous experience) that sailed for Gallipoli end July 1915. Saw first action 15 Aug 1915, but other TF battalions with new recruits in their ranks saw action earlier than that.

Also, the 7th Beds (a Service battalion) entered France end July 1915. Theres 2 battalions that were 'ready' by July 15, and as it happened, the 7th Beds earned a pretty good reputation although they were a new army battalion. (Both were commented on as being unblooded, green and other such phrases early in their active services of course.)

Perhaps the ref to the new army taking 2 years to train relates to taking 2 years to build up/train a substantially sized army made from new recruits. Also, by then most of the pre war veterans would have become casualties so not much of the original professional nucleus was left.

[Muerrisch]

[

According to what I know it was possible in the beginning of the war for a person to choose whether he would joined the Regular Army, the New Army, of even the Territorials. I believe quite a few joined the Regulars since that had more prestige, and might give them action much quicker. So, if he joined the Regular Army, he might have joined his battalion after his training.

Can I put some misapprehensions straight, please.

There were four types of enlistment, three available until 4 August 1914 were:

regular army 7 years colours, 5 reserve

special reserve: 6 months training, four years commitment, overseas liability in war

territorial force: saturday night soldiers, fortnight camp, no overseas liability unless one took the Imperial Service commitment, and then only with your own battalion.

When war broke out, 'short service or the duration' enlistment was added: such a soldier was treated in every way as a regular, even being numbered in the regular series. As to whether he went to a Service battalion or a line battalion, lap of the gods.

The three above continued to be available, but TF recruitment was seen as a soft, low risk option and was effectively abandoned in 1916.

So the distinction regular/ 'volunteer' is really only relevant in terms of how soon a soldier might get to the front. The only reliable fact I have is that, on 26 May 1915, the first batch of 'all-post 4 Aug 1914 men' went to France from the training battalion of RWF.

[kevin ley]

Thanks everybody. I guess this confirms my view that my Gt. Grandad was not in the military before the War started and that it was in fact quite normal to goin into a Regular unit at the front with less than a years training.

many thanks.

Kevin.