Remembered Today: Leutnant d.R. Erwin THOMAE

[ph0ebus]

Karsten,

Well done! I hope to be able to read the finished product once you get it published.

Daniel

[egbert]

Tolles Ergebnis Karsten!

Please keep us informed about the envisioned article and eventually your photos.

[Karsten]

Thank you. Yes, I will post my article here once it is published (hopefully!).

There is one fact that puzzles me:

The history of the 89th US-Division (see link in my last post) says on p. 245: "The Americans, unaware of the armistice, opened fire upon them, wounding the officer (= Leutnant Thomae). The wounded officer drew his pistol and ended his life by shooting himself through the head."

None of the German sources (war diary, regimental history, service record, eye witness report, burial speech) mentions that detail. But I have to admit that none of them says expressis verbis that Leutnant Thomae was killed by the American bullets. They only say he went to ground hit by the Americans.

There are some questions:

1. Why should Leutnant Thomae shot himself? He knew that there was armistice and war was over. He was not in a desperate situation.

2. Why should the Americans invent that fact? Their plausible excuse for shooting Leutnant Thomae was that they didn't knew that there was armistice due to disturbed lines of communication. Shooting him was an accident, but not a crime.

3. If Leutnant Thoma shot himself, why should the Germans have hide that fact? To hide an dishonourable behaviour (suicide or attempt of suicide by an officer)? There were only two Germans eyewitnesses of the shooting himself but the body of Leutnant Thomae was rescued by a German patrol (officers and about 15 soldiers). Is it belivable that so many witnesses (they saw the body of the dead Leutnant Thomae and must have recognised a shot through the head) kept silence?

Any thougts? I am aware that we will never find the truth but perhaps we can discuss this.

Regards

Karsten

[Karsten]

This is the place Leutnant Thomae was buried on 23rd November 1918, 3.00 p.m.

There are six burial places, three on each side between the foreground and the big cross in the back. Unfortunately I cannot say where exactly he was buried because his headstone is gone ...

Regards,

Karsten

Edited 11 September , 2013 by Karsten

[egbert]

Karsten when I had similar trouble I just walked in the Friedhofsverwaltung and voila they have all present , past and very past burial places in their archive for exact pinpointing

[Karsten]

Egbert, yes I have asked them. But they cannot better indicate. The guy in the Friedhofsverwaltung even remembered the headstone - shaped like an iron cross - but it is gone/lost. What a pity. I am disapointed, even sad and perhaps a bit angry about the loss of the headstone.

[egbert]

Maybe the Verwaltung has done it similar to what happened with Lt Ibach's headstone in Düsseldorf? Somewhere in the backyard of the cemetery mason?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38526&p=479478

[Karsten]

Egbert, that's a good idea. I will ask them.

[Karsten]

Remembering Leutnant d.R. Erwin Thomä, who died 95 years ago. He was shot half an hour after armistice.

Karsten

[Karsten]

I have heard now a true, though almost unbelievable story:

The Haus der Geschichte in Stuttgart (http://www.hdgbw.de/) has acquired some years ago the "Feldkiste" (= field box or field trunk) of Erwin Thomä with his hussars' uniform in it. Thus they have his complete uniform and some personal belongings. They will put in on display in November this year.

I am looking forward to that!

[ph0ebus]

I have heard now a true, though almost unbelievable story:

The Haus der Geschichte in Stuttgart (http://www.hdgbw.de/) has acquired some years ago the "Feldkiste" (= field box or field trunk) of Erwin Thomä with his hussars' uniform in it. Thus they have his complete uniform and some personal belongings. They will put in on display in November this year.

I am looking forward to that!

Wow!!!

[Ken S.]

I found this:

http://www.lvz-trauer.de/29307580

Is there a family plot elsewhere in the cemetery? Maybe the marker was moved there.

[Karsten]

I found this:

http://www.lvz-trauer.de/29307580

Is there a family plot elsewhere in the cemetery? Maybe the marker was moved there.

I think that's an other family named "Thomä". This name is not rare here in Southern Gernamy.

Karsten

[Ken S.]

Thanks for the clarification.

[bacon]

I have read this thread with interest and it looks as if the Americans committed something rather unsavoury. Their 'report' smacks of a minor hysterical coverup. To suggest the officer shot himself in the head is almost laughable. To also suggest they knew nothing of the armistice is also laughable. We are not talking about a mobile and disorganised firing line in Kurdistan here. We are talking about a firing line that maintained a highly organised chain of command and a very clear demarcation of responsibility and complex minor hierarchical controls.

There is something sinister in this event and i would like to know if the names of the individuals in the 89th US regiment were recorded. I doubt it.

[greatspywar]

Hello Karsten,

 

Has your article been published yet? Have you been to the Haus der Geschichte in Stuttgart to see Thomä's Feldkiste?

 

Thanks for the info!

 

All the best,

 

Jan

[Karsten]

On 2.11.2017 at 21:41, greatspywar said:

Hello Karsten,

 

Has your article been published yet? Have you been to the Haus der Geschichte in Stuttgart to see Thomä's Feldkiste?

 

Thanks for the info!

 

All the best,

 

Jan

Hi Jan,

 

sorry for answering so late.

 

No, my article has not been published yet. I hope this will happen during 2018.

 

Yes, I have been to the Haus der Geschichte. Unfortunately I could not see his field trunk as it was not on display. Only his uniform has been shown, see the attached photo.

 

Regards,

 

Karsten 

Edited 4 March , 2018 by Karsten

[Karsten]

Remembering Lt. Erwin Thomä, killed one hundred years ago.

 

A quote from the war diary of the 1st Bataillon/Grenadier-Regiment 123, which was around Inor when Lt. Thomä was killed, from 11 November 1918:

 

Quote

Während diese Rückwärtsbewegung (einem am Vormittag befohlenen Rückzug zu einer rückwärtigen Auffangstellung, Anm. d. Verf.) vor sich geht, trifft, längst erwartet und von vielen vorhergesagt, um 9.45 vormittags der lakonische Befehl ein: „UM 12.00 MITTAGS TRITT WAFFENRUHE EIN.“ Die Bewegungen werden vollends zu Ende geführt, dann wird der Befehl den Kompanien bekannt gemacht. Mit lebhafter Freude wird diese Neuigkeit allerseits aufgenommen. Zwar dämpft das Gefühl, dass das Ende doch nicht so gekommen, wie man es gehofft hatte, die Begeisterung ziemlich stark; aber das angenehme Bewusstsein, zunächst allen Gefahren und vielen Entbehrungen entronnen zu sein, herrscht doch bei den meisten Leuten vor. Und diesen Gefühlen verleihen sie auch Ausdruck, indem sie singen und auch mitunter sich in einigen lebhafteren Ausdrücken der Freude Lust machen. Die Artillerie beider Parteien ist zum Schluss noch einmal sehr lebhaft; man hat den Eindruck, dass sie die aufgestapelte Munition vollends verschiessen will. Gegen Mittag wird sie jedoch immer ruhiger und Punkt 11.55 vormittags tritt im Abschnitt Ruhe ein. Die Hornisten besteigen die Höhen und lassen nach allen Richtungen „Das Ganze! Halt!“ ertönen, das vielfach aufgenommen und nach Nord und Süd weitergegeben wird. Dann wird entladen, die Gewehre werden zusammengesetzt – der Krieg ist beendet. Inor und die Kanallinie werden wieder mit Posten besetzt, damit eine scharfe Demarkationslinie besteht. Und bald darauf eintreffende amerikanische Patrouillen, die für ihr Bataillon in Inor Quartier machen wollen, werden freundschaftlichst hinausgewiesen, weil diese Ortschaft noch uns gehört. Das ist die Wirkung von ein paar Worten! Mit Leuten, die noch am Vormittag unsere größten Feinde waren, die noch den Angriffsbefehl auf Malandry in der Tasche tragen, verkehren wir jetzt, als ob nie Krieg zwischen Amerika und Deutschland bestanden hätte. Es ist eigentlich lächerlich, dass Worte solche Wirkung haben können, aber man ist in diesem Fall froh.

 

 

[Pierre Boussard]

Dear Karsten,

Dear all,

It's been a while since this topic hasn't received any updates.

I have read with strong interest this topic; some of my family lives just 10 kms of Inor (in Stenay), where this dramatic case happened.

I have came across the attached picture, which seem legit; it moreover looks similar than the picture displayed on his uniform feet, if you look closely of at Karsten's picture taken at the Haus der Geschichte.

As one member rightfully pointed out, all this story reeks a cover up of something grim and and sad happening that very afternoon. We will never know for sure what were the true intentions of the US soldiers involved.

Separately, I wish we could know which grave is his, but it looks like Karsten went the farthest possible already.

Thank you so much Karsten and everyone here who contributed to retrieve this unique story of WW1.

 

[Karsten]

On 08/10/2023 at 14:06, Pierre Boussard said:

Dear Karsten,

Dear all,

It's been a while since this topic hasn't received any updates.

I have read with strong interest this topic; some of my family lives just 10 kms of Inor (in Stenay), where this dramatic case happened.

I have came across the attached picture, which seem legit; it moreover looks similar than the picture displayed on his uniform feet, if you look closely of at Karsten's picture taken at the Haus der Geschichte.

As one member rightfully pointed out, all this story reeks a cover up of something grim and and sad happening that very afternoon. We will never know for sure what were the true intentions of the US soldiers involved.

Separately, I wish we could know which grave is his, but it looks like Karsten went the farthest possible already.

Thank you so much Karsten and everyone here who contributed to retrieve this unique story of WW1.

 

Dear Pierre, thanks!

My aforementioned article was published in "Der Bote" of the Wehrgeschichtliches Museum in Rastatt, issue 49 (2019): http://shop.wgm-rastatt.de/products-page/zeitschriften/der-bote-aus-dem-wehrgeschichtlichen-museum-heft-49-2019/