Regimental pipes in battle

[kevin ley]

My understanding from D-Day in WWII is that there were orders that pipes were not to be played during the beach landings. In the "Longest Day" there is the famous incident scene where Lord Lovatt's brigade disobey orders and play the pipes anyway on Sword Beach I recall.

My question is during WWI how common was the use of pipes when the lads went over the top i.e. to stiffen the resolve? I would ahve assumed that an infantry attack following a creeping barrage would have not wished to alert the enemy until the very last minute i.e. visual contact was made in no-mans land.

If pipes were used did all regiments/battalions have pipers or was it only the Scots and Irish regiments?

Interested to know any leads or research on this subject

Rgds,

Kevin.

[Wienand Drenth]

According to my knowledge only Scottish Highland regiments (i.e. kilted regiments) had pipers. And yes, they were used in battle. For example in the Battle of Loos in September 1915 when two Scottish division attacked. I am not sure, but I think some pipers were awarded the VC. Someone with more knowledge on these matters may comment in more detail.

Wienand

[Malcolm]

For a list of units with pipers see

http://www.ifrance.com/pipersmemorial/ and look at the RoH.

Canadian, South African and some other units are listed as well as Scottish and Irish.

Aye

Malcolm

[N.S.Regt.]

The 25th battalion of the CEF had a pipe band which followed the Battalion everywhere. Two pipers were awarded the M.M. for piping the Battalion over the top at vimy ridge. the 25th were not a highland unit and only the pipers wore kilts which were of MacKenzie Tartan.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[PhilB]

I believe the Turks would bring up a band to play the men over the top on Gallipoli. Luckily (for any Englishmen within earshot) I don`t think they had a bagpipe section! Phil B

[Terry]

There were many pipe bands in the CEF. One of the 16th Battalion's four VC's went to Piper J.C.Richardson, a Scot whose family had emigrated pre-war.

He earned his VC during the fighting at Regina Trench in October,1916. Apparently he had orders not to pipe the men over the top, and was told not to play until ordered to. When the 16th came upon intact barbed wire their assault stalled and Richardson began to pipe in full view of the Germans. The unit went on to fight their way into the trench.

Richardson apparently was killed some time in the next twenty-four hours, aged twenty.

[Malcolm]

When the battalion remnants fell back to their start trenches Richardson had lost his pipes and , despite being told not to, he went back to retrieve them and was never seen again. He probably didn't know he was being put forward for a VC for his earlier piping over the top. He is mentioned on the Peebles War Memorial and was born at Bellshill, Lanarkshire.

Aye

Malcolm

[Canadawwi]

This August 1918 Canadian newspaper article mentions that a CEF Highlander Piper was seated on top of the tank Dominion as it went into battle. The specific units involved are not mentioned in this article because of wartime censorship.

[SFayers]

I remember a documentary on TV some years ago (it may well have been specifically on the use of pipes in battle - but I'm not entirely sure) where an old boy was being interviewed who served as a piper in one of the Scottish regiments during WWI. He mentioned that before an attack Scottish pipers were sometimes seconded to English units to boost moral whilst going over the top - even he seemed to be very surprised at this!!

[PhilB]

They`d probably rather face the machine guns! A sort of musical battle police. Phil B

[DirtyDick]

Although undoubtedly often used in battle to bolser martial resolve and unnerve the enemy, as with all regimental musicians (save for drummers and later buglers) they were expected to leave their instruments behind and act as stretcher bearers when the fighting began: but given the strong traditions of Scottish and pseudo-Scottish regiments of the Empire I can't imagine that being followed too often.

Richard

[harribobs]

the pipe major in the original post was Bill Millin, who was recently interviewed about his exploits on D day with lovatts commandos (or it was replayed recently)

He was quite realastic about going into battle with only a set of pipes and if my memory serves me well, he said he would have rather had a rifle

[Landsturm]

I am not sure, but I think some pipers were awarded the VC. Someone with more knowledge on these matters may comment in more detail.

Daniel Laidlaw, 40-year old piper from the 7th Bn of King's Own Scottish Borderers. On 25 September 1915 near Loos and Hill 70, prior to an assault on enemy trenches and during the worst of the bombardment, Piper Laidlaw, seeing that his company was shaken with the effects of gas, with complete disregard for danger, mounted the parapet and, marching up and down, played his company out of the trench. The effect of his splendid example was immediate and the company dashed to the assault. Piper Laidlaw continued playing his pipes even after he was wounded and until the position was won. And yes, he won VC for his actions.

[Arnie]

In fact there have been three VCs awarded to piper since the inaugeration of the Cross. Only two were for actions in the Great war and have been mentioned above. The three are:

Piper George Findlater Gordon Highlanders at Durgai Heights during the Tirah campaign in India in 29th October 1897.

Piper Daniel Laidlaw KOSB at Loos in 1915 (prev mentioned).

Piper Daniel Richardson Manitoba Regt. at Regina Trench 1916 (prev mentioned).

Arnie

[KILTY]

The piper were eventually forbidden to lead the battalion into battle. As you can imagine the casualty figures were horrendous.

Kilty.

[Terry]

An aside; I was reading an account of the Dieppe raid (August,1942), and the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada were in the second wave in the attack. Piper Alex Graham began playing about a mile offshore. By this time everyone realised that all hell had broken loose on the beach. Graham continued to play under heavy fire.

Observing Graham one soldier wrote, "I looked to my right and there stood a man on the craft next to me, with a Highland bonnet on, ribbons flying in the breeze, and he was playing the bagpipes. And it was the most momentous moment of my life. I've never been so ready to die as I was then."

All the members of the pipe band became casualties and Graham was taken prisoner. It was apparently the last time a Canadian unit was piped into battle.

In the 1950's the veterans paraded past the L'Arc de Triomphe in Paris, led by Pipe Major Alex Graham.

[kevin ley]

It would be a very interesting research project to perhaps look at whether there was any correlation between battle success and the use of pipes. Perhaps a PhD for somebody?

For example if one defined battle success as achieving the objectives with the minimum of casualties, it would be interesting to see if there was any correlation with the use of pipes.

The general gist I get from the thread is that the pipes were good at getting men to achieve the objectives but perhaps at high cost. The power of music!!!!

It reminds me a little of the Zulu wars where it is now known that the Zulu warriors were tanked up on a very powerful concoction of natural drugs before going into battle where they knew they were likely to take heavy casualties and yet still charge the guns.

Kevin.

[jdajd]

For any reenactors who frequent this site they would be familiar with the "reenactors moment". The split second sometimes when you forget it is all make believe and actually empathise with the men you are portraying. Mine came in my first event and was a result of the pipes. I am a member of a unit that portrays the AEF 27th Div.. We were scheduled to launch a night attack and were jumping off from the British trenches. As zero hour approached the gunfire hit a crescendo and the flasks were being passed around for a bit of Dutch courage. A smoke screen hung over the trenches totally obscuring the ground in front. All of a sudden the pipes started skirling (sp?) in the bay next to us and at the moment I forgot that I was in a mock trench in Pennsylvania. My heart raced as the whistles blew and we went over the top. I remember watching the piper go over as well and the last I saw of him was as he was swallowed up by the smoke and fumes.

I can well imagine how the sound of the pipes on the Western Front would have given the men strength. I would think it also provided a little bit of home in the middle of a bttle zone.

[Terry]

Not exactly a re-enactor story, but I can understand how your surroundings can really spook you.

Many years ago I was on my FOO course at CFB Shilo, Manitoba. One of my fellow candidates was a Jewish fellow whose grandparents had managed to survive the death camps. Early one morning, we were crouched down in our hole in the darkness, when we heard the rumble of armoured vehicles. Slowly, out of the fog emerged a column of German army tanks and AFV's, complete with black crosses.

My companion was visibly affected by it, and I have to admit that it gave me a chill.

I should mention that for many years CFB Shilo was used by the Germans to train their panzer and panzer grenadier units, just like the British army still uses Suffield,Alberta.

[Wienand Drenth]

To those interested, Dispatch number 165, the journal of the Scottish Military Historical Society, contains an article (part 1) on pipers in the Great War. It runs to four pages, and there are four tables dealing with casualties. Seems interesting to those who are researching pipes in battle!

Regards,

Wienand

[Canadawwi]

Regarding stories about Highland pipers at war - here's an article I just found about Canadian Pipers going over the top at Vimy Ridge. It was published on May 8th, 1917 in the Toronto Star.

[Edward_N_Kelly]

In fact there have been three VCs awarded to piper since the inaugeration of the Cross. Only two were for actions in the Great war and have been mentioned above. The three are:

Piper George Findlater Gordon Highlanders at Durgai Heights during the Tirah campaign in India in 29th October 1897.

And this was the subject of much discussion (in an oblique way) in George Macdonadl Fraser's "McAuslan Series" of books - I think the "The Shiek and the Dustbin".

"What was that tune he played when he won the VC ?"

An excellent telling of the power of the RSM ......

Cheers

Edward

PS And as I learnt of many years in the Army of Oz - always be friends with the RQMS and the Catering WO and never cross the RSM!

[Guest Dewy]

the pipe major in the original post was Bill Millin, who was recently interviewed about his exploits on D day with lovatts commandos (or it was replayed recently)

He was quite realastic about going into battle with only a set of pipes and if my memory serves me well, he said he would have rather had a rifle

I was doing a search for Pegasus Bridge a year or so ago.

Piper Bill Millin disobeyed a general order that pipers should wear full battle dress so as not to be targeted by the enemy.

It was his disobedience that led to the episode shown in 'The Longest Day'