12th (Bermondsey) Service Bn East Surrey Regiment - book

[Prelmes]

Hi

I joined this forum yesterday with the purpose of researching George Burleigh Elmes - my grandfather.

I found from the Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933 that he enlisted with the Royal West Kent Regiment on 8th February 1910. The following information was also given in the transcript:

First Name(s): George ; Last Name: Elmes ; Unit: Royal West Kent Regiment ; Reference: 2496 / 35 ; Page number: 44

Age: 18 Years 6 Months ; Height:5ft 4.75in. ; Weight (pounds):112 ; Chest size (inches):34 ; Chest Expansion (inches):3

Complexion:Fresh ; Eye colour:Brownish Green ; Hair colour:Light Brown ; Distinctive marks:Scar+ Tattoo+

Occupation:Bricklayer ; Birthplace:Battersea ; County:Surrey ; Attestation date:08 February 1910 ; Attestation place:Kingston

...................

I also downloaded his MIC from the National Archives which showed he was a WO Class 2 in the RWK and MGC. He was awarded the Victory Medal.

George married Gladys Louisa Sharman in 1922. He died in 1944.

I would be interested in any information anyone has on George Elmes.

Thanks

[Prelmes]

Further to my post above - I've since found that the transcript cannot be of my grandfather. My grandfather, George Burleigh Elmes, was born in 1877 in Battersea and was the son of another George Burleigh Elmes.

The transcript refers to George Elmes born in 1892, son of John William Elmes (my grandfather's brother). In the 1911 census he is listed as a Drummer 1st Royal West Kent Regiment.

I'm still a novice at navigating through all the data and piecing the information together.

[mcassell]

Prelmes - Thanks for the reply re George Elmes. My prediction of "we will never know" has been confounded and we now know for sure CSM George Elmes was a regular in the 1 RWK, and not in the 11RWK, and was not an older man during the war. I have to wonder, though, whether George Burleigh Elmes was the man my original contact was referring to. Might be worth following up the 12 East Surrey connection...

[Jim Hastings]

Thanks high wood,

How did you find that out about the 9th - be interested for any tips about tracking down a Bn's men? The 4th were the Croydon infantry TF, but wouldn't have 1914 enlistments have gone for the Service Bns first to get to the front quicker, TF being still seen as for Home Service then? Especially with 1/4th being sent to india? I know Coppard enlisted at their barracks, into the 6th.

I'm getting Michael Lucas's book on the 9th for Christmas ( supposed to be birthday but the hint was missed!!) so be good to read about a Bn with local links

Thanks again

Jim

[mcassell]

Hi

I joined this forum yesterday with the purpose of researching George Burleigh Elmes - my grandfather.

I found from the Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933 that he enlisted with the Royal West Kent Regiment on 8th February 1910. The following information was also given in the transcript:

First Name(s): George ; Last Name: Elmes ; Unit: Royal West Kent Regiment ; Reference: 2496 / 35 ; Page number: 44

Age: 18 Years 6 Months ; Height:5ft 4.75in. ; Weight (pounds):112 ; Chest size (inches):34 ; Chest Expansion (inches):3

Complexion:Fresh ; Eye colour:Brownish Green ; Hair colour:Light Brown ; Distinctive marks:Scar+ Tattoo+

Occupation:Bricklayer ; Birthplace:Battersea ; County:Surrey ; Attestation date:08 February 1910 ; Attestation place:Kingston

...................

I also downloaded his MIC from the National Archives which showed he was a WO Class 2 in the RWK and MGC. He was awarded the Victory Medal.

George married Gladys Louisa Sharman in 1922. He died in 1944.

I would be interested in any information anyone has on George Elmes.

Thanks

My reading of the various documents for George Elmes of the RWKs is:

Baptized George Elmes 25 October 1891; born 27 August 1891; parents John William and Elizabeth Ann Elmes.

1911 Census: Drummer George Elmes 1 RWKs; registered by father John William Elmes at 29 Caxton Road

BDM: George Burleigh Elmes born 27 August 1891 died Coventry December 1972

Confusing?!!

[Prelmes]

I've since traced my grandfather's record. He joined the 5th Service Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment on 25th August 1914. My records show he was around 37 years old at the time and lied about his age to volunteer, giving it as 29 years 11 months. He died in 1944 in Brentford, Middlesex.

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you high wood,

Yes I raised a post a few months ago on how surprised I was reading in the introduction of Billie Nevill's Letters of the composition of 8th Bn, I assumed (always a mistake) that it was the same for the 7th and 9th. Sounds like the East Surreys liked their recruitment drives. So what sort of spread did you discover for 9th, just out of interest? Very interesting to learn that, thank you.

Cheers Jim

[high wood]

The database for the 9th Battalion is still a work in progress but it appears that a lot of men from the borough of Lambeth enlisted in the original battalion by which I mean those who went over on 31st August 1915 and who fought at the battle of Loos less than a month later. The battalion was practically rebuilt after the battle.

Men enlisted from all over the parts of South London that used to be Surrey e.g. Tooting, Streatham, Wimbledon, Battersea, Walworth, Sutton, Carshalton, Wallington and as far over as Purley, Reigate and Dorking. There were a few North Londoners from places like Islington and even a small group of men who were born and enlisted in Kettering, Northamptonshire.

[Jim Hastings]

Thanks High Wood,

That does seem like a recruiting swathe paying off for the 9th - many from Purley as if I remember rightly Purley was a ripe recruiting ground generally with quite a long roll of honour? Ironically I went to school just outside Purley and each year a presentation of 'Journeys End' by one of 9th's finest was put on. Take it after Loos that recruiting pattern just bomb-burst? Interesting study you are making.

Thanks for sharing

Jim

[high wood]

Purley seem to have had a few of its sons enlisting in the posher battalions of the London Regiment such as the Queen Victoria's Rifles; probably well educated lads who commuted up to London to work as clerks.

I used to know Purley quite well having spent my formative years in Woodmansterne at the far end of the Chipstead Valley Road.

[Jim Hastings]

I noticed Croydon had a lot of LRB men, as well as QVRs and 6th London's too - I'm not too hot on the London Regts but I take it the titled ones (eg LRB, QWR, ...) were the more elite, whereas the latter numbered ones were not seen as much so, Poplar and Stepney Rifles and the like. One of my future plans is to check out the Purley and Whyteleafe RoH to see any trends.

I was a St Peter's and then Waddon area man who went to school in Old Coulsdon and returned to Selsdon and Warlingham after my service

Thank you for sharing the info

Jim

[Longboat]

. One of my future plans is to check out the Purley and Whyteleafe RoH to see any trends.

Jim,

I have an incomplete transcript of the nearby Wallington War Memorial, drop me a PM if you're interested.

Stuart

[David_Underdown]

Jim

I've started putting info about the bellringers I mentioned above online at http://halfmuffled.wordpress.com

There are fewer from Croydon proper than I thought, but there are also men from Carshalton, Beddington, Benhilton etc

[Jim Hastings]

Great thank you David, I will have a look straight after posting this

Best wishes and thanks

Jim

[Jim Hastings]

Nice to see some St Peter's men there David

[David_Underdown]

They were three of the hardest to track down, as they all moved to Croydon after the 1911 census. Fortunately the Ringing World newspaper either from wartime reports or later obits eventually gave me enough detail to track them down (and in Rowe's case even included his service number which was very helpful)

[sacredearth]

Hi Can any of you help me. I have to write a story for my University course and have chosen to write about my father's involvement in WW1. Although it will have to be a fictional account, as I do not know the full story of what happened to him, I want it to be as historically correct as possible. I have his discharge papers (army form: B. 2079 and B.2067) but need much more information about his service history and also about the war itself. He enlisted on 7.12.1915 at Kingston into 12th East Surrey. Private 17141 Robert William Bartlett. He was invalided out on 28.8.1917. I know he was in Ploegsteert Wood as he told me this when I was very young. I would like to know as much information as possible about him and his battalion, he told me that most of them got wiped out in the battle he took part in.

Also can anyone tell me what the enlisting process at that time would have been like, the type of questions he would have been asked, medicals, issue of uniforms and equipment, etc. What sort of training would he have received, where would he have been shipped out from to go to Belgium. Any intimate details of life in the trenches.

I have done a lot of research into things like trench construction, trench foot, gas attacks and equipment issued to deal with them, shell shock, food and rations, etc, but any more information in these areas and what it was like to be under attack. He told me bath were in a big wooden tub and if you were last in the fleas and lice would be floating on top. All the information I have is very sketchy and I would like to get the full picture of every aspect of his army life.

Any information will be gratefully received. Also any links would be appreciated.

Brenda Diskin

[David_Underdown]

He has a Medal index Card, WO 372/2/23737 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/image/Index/D1210603?index=1&page=0. You should also be able to find a full colour version on Ancestry. This shows that as expected for someone who was invalided out he received the Silver War Badge, authorised by List E/1500, which you should also be able to find on Ancestry. That may give a little more information.

For more general inforamtion on his expereince, the best bet is the battalion War Diary. It's not yet online, but will be by the end of the year, it's in WO 95/2634/2 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7354373 and runs from May 1916 - October 1917 (there are additional bits covering the rest of war, the battalion was trasnferred to italy and then back to France and Flanders, but obviously he had left them by then anyway). Alternatively you can view it in person at The National Archives, Kew, if yo ucan get tehre easily.

[kenf48]

Welcome to the forum, It might have been easier to start a new thread but in any event the war diary for the 12th East Surreys is online through the History Centre

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu1.aspx?li=1

As a general introduction to the lot of the soldier the late Richard Holmes 'Tommy' is excellent. Online the parent site the Long Long Trail (LLT) link top right should answer all your questions on recruitment enlistment etc http://www.1914-1918.net

In general his date of enlistment suggests he joined under the Derby Scheme and was therefore a 'volunteer' rather than a conscript. He would have been placed in a Group and mobilised in his turn (there is a list of Groups/ages) on the LLT. In fact his record hows that as a 19 year old he was posted straightaway.

He would then have received around 12 weeks training before going overseas to France. The Battalion went overseas as a unit on the 1st May as part of the 41st Division. They landed at Le Havre and the war diary will give you information as to what they did after landing. They probably embarked from Southampton.

I assume you have seen the 12 pages of pension records on Ancestry. These show details of his wounds and the fact that he enlisted on 7th December 1915 in Putney and joined the 3rd Depot or Training Battalion (at Kingston) the same day and served at Home until 30th April 1916. It looks like he was posted to the 12th Battalion on the 1st March and going overseas as above.

He was wounded on the 4th July 1916 the diary records the Battalion was in billets but there was heavy artillery activity on both sides.

No casualties are listed but given the extent of his wounds although they are listed as Gunshot Wound (GSW) it seems more likely they were shrapnel or shell splinters, which were often recorded as GSW. (The Bn was close to Ploegsteert Wood at the time and the diary shows they went back into the line there a couple of days later).

Evacuated the following day he remained in Shorncliffe Hospital until his discharge on the 15th September 1917. He was awarded the Silver War Badge no 127388.

Ken

[David_Underdown]

I was forgetting those transcirptions of the war diaries.

[sacredearth]

Thanks for your help David Underdown and Kenf48. I actually bought a copy of Tommy from Ebay which I received today. I downloaded the Medal Record and asked for an estimate for the other lists. I apologise for not starting a new thread as I don't normally use forums so am unsure of the procedure. Thanks again both of you.

[kenf48]

Thanks for your help David Underdown and Kenf48. I actually bought a copy of Tommy from Ebay which I received today. I downloaded the Medal Record and asked for an estimate for the other lists. I apologise for not starting a new thread as I don't normally use forums so am unsure of the procedure. Thanks again both of you.

You can usually access the Ancestry Library Edition for free at your local or university library, or they offer a free trial (don't forget to cancel it - library is the best option).

TNA will charge a quite high price for copying documents and frankly it won't tell you much more than the headlines above. We're all learning, if you don't normally use forums be careful you don't get hooked on this one or your studies may suffer!

btw a correction having had a closer look at his record he went to the 12th on the 8th January 1916 which is about right, four weeks basic training i.e. learning to do things the 'army way' then completed his training with his comrades in the 12th Bn. mainly marching and musketry! His wounds are listed as multiple gsw right foot left leg left thigh left hand left arm and left side(*****?), given the apparent severity although it's not reflected in the records he must have spent a couple of days at least in the medical evacuation chain.

Ken

[sacredearth]

You can usually access the Ancestry Library Edition for free at your local or university library, or they offer a free trial (don't forget to cancel it - library is the best option).

TNA will charge a quite high price for copying documents and frankly it won't tell you much more than the headlines above. We're all learning, if you don't normally use forums be careful you don't get hooked on this one or your studies may suffer!

btw a correction having had a closer look at his record he went to the 12th on the 8th January 1916 which is about right, four weeks basic training i.e. learning to do things the 'army way' then completed his training with his comrades in the 12th Bn. mainly marching and musketry! His wounds are listed as multiple gsw right foot left leg left thigh left hand left arm and left side(*****?), given the apparent severity although it's not reflected in the records he must have spent a couple of days at least in the medical evacuation chain.

Ken

Thanks Ken, The other injury was shrapnell in his head which caused problems throughout his life, Thanks again. Bren

[Guest DNS]

Hello I am new to this forum. Regards recruitment to the 12th Battalion East Surrey (the Bermondsey Pals Brigade). They did recruit outside the Borough, my Grandfather enlisted at a well attended event in Richmond, Surrey on the riverside behind the old Town Hall. Ironically this is where the Richmond War Memorial is, where he and his brother who served in the 13th Battalion East Surrey (Wandsworth Pals) are membered as killed in action in 1916 and 1918.

I am interested in photos of the 12th East Surreys up to October 1916 when my grandfather was killed. I have been able to track a photograph of A Company 12th Battalion East Surreys taken at Aldershot in 1916 before they embarked for France.