jaqspax Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Hello can anyone help identify this uniform? I suspect it's my great uncle from Wales but the photo has no label, any help gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Can you get closer to the shoulder title on the epaulette? It looks curved which would rule out Black Watch (RH on shoulder title) and Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (A&SH), the kilt rules out the Lowland Regiments, He's not Liverpool Scottish as their Tartan has a distinctive white stripe, it also seems, although it's hard to tell, that it's got a T above it, if you have the original, have a look with a magnifying glass, it should be better than blowing it up on the PC. What's your great uncles Name and did he survive or was he KIA? It'd make things easier. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaqspax Posted 19 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Thank you for the response his name was James Morris born in Overton on Dee Flint in 1888 (appears on 1901 census). Unfortunately I have no other info to go on. We have photo's of my other two great uncles one of whom died in Zillibeke T Morris 13/11/1914, and a regimental Royal Welsh Fusiliers Christmas card Eric Morris sent 1917 but nothing more on James Morris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Did you try to see if you could get a better look at the shoulder title? Does it say Seaforth, Gordon or Cameron? Did he survive? Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaqspax Posted 19 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Hi Yes he did survive the war, unfortunately I can't make out the shoulder title. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 The kilt has the dark look of the government, or Black Watch Tartan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Hi Yes he did survive the war, unfortunately I can't make out the shoulder title. Philip Can you confirm if it's curved? I maybe wrong, but I think he could be Gordon Highlanders, he's a L/Cpl so I'd guess at S/10160 Pte later Cpl James Morris Gordon Highlanders, this is his medal card on Ancestry http://search.ancest...x=1&uidh=000 I maybe wrong though, I suggest you post the photo and all the info including wh I think it is on the Soldiers forum and add a link to this post, it'll get more attention there and others may confirm or refute my assumption. Sam The kilt has the dark look of the government, or Black Watch Tartan. I initially thought so too, but a curved shoulder title would rule out Black Watch, that's why I'm asking for confirmation above, also the light stripe in the Gordons tartan doesn't show up well in B&W photos. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 FWIW Gordons would usually have two, Belled (looped) hose flashes. These do not appear to be belled. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaqspax Posted 19 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Hello firstly thank you for sharing your expertise. The shoulder title is curved hopefully the image below will give more detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 The curved shoulder title narrows the possibilities to Seaforth, Gordons, or Camerons. The configuration of the hose flashes makes this subject a Cameron Highlander and probably from a regular battalion. The yellow lines of the 79th tartan would be masked by the orthochromatic film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 19 October , 2012 Share Posted 19 October , 2012 Only 3 x James Morris with MIC's in the Cameron's, one was KIA and the other 2 are for the same man, S/17880 Pte James E Morris and S/17880 Sgt James Morris this is them on Ancestry http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?MS_AdvCB=1&db=MedalRolls&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=ms_r_db&gsfn_x=1&gsln=morris&gsln_x=1&_F0003FD8=s%2F17880&dbOnly=_F0003FD8%7C_F0003FD8_x&_F0003FD8_x=1&_F0003FD9=cameron+highlanders&dbOnly=_F0003FD9%7C_F0003FD9_x&_F0003FD9_x=1&uidh=000 the 1st is possibly for a Star, the 2nd for the War and Victory medals. The interesting thing is there's a 3rd card for S/17880 Cpl J E Morris and it's for a DCM, this is the London Gazette entry http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30879/supplements/10327 and it shows he's from Wrexham, I'm sure you'll be aware that's only 7 miles from Wreham. Did he have a middle name? Looks like you may not only have found him, but there's a lot more to him than you thought, you now need to look for a birth entry to see if he has a middle name beginning with E, then check local newspapers in Wrexham from around the date of the LG entry to see if they ran a story on him, very likely as the DCM is 2nd only to the VC for non-Officers. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaqspax Posted 20 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2012 Hello I'll get verification from family (hopefully a look at the original photo) as I cant find the birth entry and update when I find out. I have a sneaking suspicion that this may be the same J Morris as the photo is a jpeg and titled Uncle Jim DCM 279.jpg- although I assumed this was a reference to the camera that captured/scanned the image as my camera often assigns dcim to the folder when storing images. I nearly fell off my chair when i realised this after a fruitless search for a birth certificate I'm taking my Father to visit some of the sites where my Grandfather fought and was wounded and Tom died in November, so will try and find out a little more about where James may have served. Again many thanks for your help. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 20 October , 2012 Share Posted 20 October , 2012 Remember and get back to us and let us know how you get on. It might be worth lokking at the medal cards to see if they give a "date of entry therein" to tie down his Bn, I did say one of his Medal Cards could be for a Star and they regularly give a Date of entry. The "S/" prefix in his Service number almost certainly means he was in one of the "Service Bn's of the Camerons, 3 of which 5th, 6th and 7th served in a theatre of War (France in each case) http://www.1914-1918.net/cameron.htm 5th Bn arrived arrived 10th May with the 9th Div, 6th Bn on 10th July and 7th Bn 9th July (both with 15th Div) as you'll see from the link , so it's probable he served with the 9th or 15th Div. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Watt Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 Hi there Although he has a S/ prefix service battalion, this does not necessarily mean that he served with a service battalion of the Cameron Highlanders. His medal index card gives a date of entry to France as 15 June 1915. He could also have been with the 1st or 2nd Cameron Highlanders as the regular battalions took S/ service number men from the end of 1914. He certainly wasn't with the 6th or 7th Camerons - they only arrived in France in July 1915. Sorry if this muddies the waters! Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 Hi there Although he has a S/ prefix service battalion, this does not necessarily mean that he served with a service battalion of the Cameron Highlanders. His medal index card gives a date of entry to France as 15 June 1915. He could also have been with the 1st or 2nd Cameron Highlanders as the regular battalions took S/ service number men from the end of 1914. He certainly wasn't with the 6th or 7th Camerons - they only arrived in France in July 1915. Sorry if this muddies the waters! Patrick What do we know about the likelihood of Service battalions wearing the shoulder titles of the parent regiment? Ray Westlake in his book "Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles" is rather non-committal noting that Service battalions, if they wore them at all, wore the titles used by the regular battalions (paraphrased). Anybody have anything more definitive on this question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Watt Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Glasgow University Roll of Honour on their website have several photographs of men in the 6th Cameron Highlanders, a service battalion. Private John Crawford did not wear shoulder titles http://www.universitystory.gla.ac.uk/image/?id1=2297&id2=1128348435&p=4 Here is a photo of Private Donald MacLeod of the 5th Camerons (died 1915) and it seems he did not wear shoulder titles either. http://facesmemorial.blogspot.com/2007/07/habost-tabost-lochs.html Whilst this is not conclusive proof either way, perhaps it does point to the man being in either the 1st or 2nd Camerons. My money is on the 1st Camerons. His service number indicates an enlistment date of early April 1915, so he did well to get to the front by mid-June. Perhaps he could be found in the 79th News? Either the July or October 1915 editions might have a list of replacements to the battalions at the front. Hope this helps Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Just to expand on the medal card information that Patrick has posted. There are indeed two medal cards - one for his British War Medal/Victory Medal and one for his 1914-15 Star. The 1914-15 Star card to James E Morris S/17880 Cameron Highlanders shows - Private upon arrival in Theatre of War (1) France & Flanders on 15th June 1915. He was transferred to Class Z Reserve pending discharge on 14th January 1919. The British War Medal/Victory Medal card to James Morris D.C.M. S/17880 Cameron Highlanders shows - highest rank Sergeant, medal roll reference Volume G/103 B8 page 376 The latter reference can be traced to a medal roll (large ledger book) held at the National Archives at Kew which will show his battalion. The National Archives Catalogue index shows: WO 329/1666 Cameron Highlanders (Queen's Own) other ranks; Medal Rolls G/103B7; G/103B8; G/103B9; G/103B10; G/103B11; G/103B12 Pages 324-646. British War Medal and Victory Medal. [1914-1920] These are physical books held at the National Archives - the WO329/1666 is the reference to the book to order. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Ah, nearly forgot about the DCM cards online. The DCM card shows that he was with the 5th Cameron Highlanders in 1918 when he was awarded his D.C.M. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaqspax Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Thank you all for the help with this, I'll endeavor to follow up the leads you've suggested. I have found this all fascinating and am very much looking forward to my impending visit to France and Belgium where I hope to find out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 There is a Card Index for men of Flintshire who served in the war. This has now been put online (or at least the index for the cards). Each card apparently has details of the man's service. See: http://www.flintshir...glish/worldwar1 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Incidentally the 1911 Census for Wales shows a James Edward Morris, age 21, a collier (hewer), born at Overton on Dee, Flintshire as a boarder at 31 Margaret Street, Ammanford, Carmarthenshire with a Daniel and Mary Jane Jones and family. More circumstantial evidence that James E Morris is the right man. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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